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Thread: This is a Claymore

  1. #101
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    I am usually not the 'snippy' one on the forum but this time I am feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing. If the whole thread had been bothered to have been read Mr Dmitry Z~Gy would have seen the conclusions to the argument that the term is proper for both types of swords.

    Icepick: Research is to confirm or deny one's assumptions, not put an assumption on a brass plaque

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis Smith View Post
    I am usually not the 'snippy' one on the forum but this time I am feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing.
    Maybe this will help - open a bottle of Claymore, report back when it's dry.
    Repeat, if necessary.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Away you Cut-purse Rascall, you filthy Bung,
    away: By this Wine, Ile thrust my Knife in your mouldie
    Chappes, if you play the sawcie Cuttle with me. Away
    you Bottle-Ale Rascall, you Basket-hilt stale Iugler, you.
    Since when, I pray you, Sir? what, with two Points on
    your shoulder? much

    William Shakespeare, Henry IV
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    Question - if a Scot was carrying a sword other than a basket-hilt to Culloden, would he be prohibited from shouting "Claymore" by his peers, or would it still be OK? Did the Scots call all their swords claymores?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry Z~G View Post
    Maybe this will help - open a bottle of Claymore, report back when it's dry.
    Repeat, if necessary.

    I only drink single malts, anything else is "uncivilized"

    some people will recognize the quote

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry Z~G View Post
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Away you Cut-purse Rascall, you filthy Bung,
    away: By this Wine, Ile thrust my Knife in your mouldie
    Chappes, if you play the sawcie Cuttle with me. Away
    you Bottle-Ale Rascall, you Basket-hilt stale Iugler, you.
    Since when, I pray you, Sir? what, with two Points on
    your shoulder? much

    William Shakespeare, Henry IV
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    What on earth has this got to do with Highland Scottish basket-hilted broadswords/claymores?

    Question - if a Scot was carrying a sword other than a basket-hilt to Culloden, would he be prohibited from shouting "Claymore" by his peers, or would it still be OK?
    Of course it would. Assuming for a moment that there was the odd non-basket-hilt present, how does this negate the evidence of basket-hilts being known as "claymore"?


    Did the Scots call all their swords claymores?
    We have only the evidence. The evidence shows that Scots called the basket-hilted sword and the older two-handed sword BOTH by the name "claymore". Why assume then, that it applies to more types than that? What types are you thinking of? Do you have references? Examples in surviving collections? What, in fact, is your point?

    Perhaps it will come across better in Claude Blair's measured tones;

    http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/10221462

  5. #105
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    JSF, grow some sense of humor, will ya?! You're not the only one who reads books. I have an author to plug as well, you see.
    Charles Henry Ashdown - EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR, p.337.
    The Scottish claymore is really the two-handed sword, and the application of the name to the basket-hilted broadsword of the eighteenth century is a mistake.

  6. #106
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    Thanks for that page. IIRC, this presents summation of the first few pages of this thread.


    What on earth has this got to do with Highland Scottish basket-hilted broadswords/claymores?
    Mayhap retort to a toady. One that might better consider Falstaff (or many others) his muse of imitation.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Let me not understand you, then; speak it in Welsh

    That last from a favorite part of that play (Act III Scene I). Not so unlike a great number of forum exchanges

    HOTSPUR
    I'll have it so: a little charge will do it.

    GLENDOWER
    I'll not have it alter'd.

    HOTSPUR
    Will not you?

    GLENDOWER
    No, nor you shall not.

    HOTSPUR
    Who shall say me nay?

    GLENDOWER
    Why, that will I.

    HOTSPUR
    Let me not understand you, then; speak it in Welsh.

  7. #107
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    Wow, I'm surprised this thread is still making the rounds I thought it was covered quite well. I fully buy into the fact that Basket Hilts are known as Claymores but like Jonathan I still prefer the term Basket Hilt to describe same. I don't see anything wrong with calling Scottish long swords Claymores either after all, all Japanese long swords are Katanas I believe. This one that started all this I refered to as a Lowland Claymore, I still believe thats right but I've recently seen another the same refered to as a Ring Guard Claymore.
    David Gray

  8. #108
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    Hi Folks,

    Aye, that auld horse again

    I have not read every post on this thread but most, so am not sure if I might be repeating advice given previously.

    The Gaelic term, anglicised to `Claymore`, can be literally translated to `broadsword`.

    It simply means the same. The Mhor part means, depending upon context, great, broad, wide, large, etc.

    The term relating to swords simply refers to the broad bladed sword, be it single or double handed, and this was the original contemporary meaning and common use of the word.

    Today, sure, it helps to clarify specifics by mention of `two handed` or `basket hilt` to determine exactly what type of broadsword we refer to.

    All the best,

    Macdonald

  9. #109
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    That was fantastic Paul, very well put, I think if I'd heard that 90 odd posts ago this thread would've been so much shorter, thanks and Slainte!
    David Gray

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry Z~G View Post
    JSF, grow some sense of humor, will ya?! You're not the only one who reads books. I have an author to plug as well, you see.
    Charles Henry Ashdown - EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR, p.337.
    The Scottish claymore is really the two-handed sword, and the application of the name to the basket-hilted broadsword of the eighteenth century is a mistake.
    My sense of humour tends to get strained when people come in on a well-trodden thread and cheerfully ignore the evidence presented, yet still assuming an air of authority. It's a bit rude. If there was humour intended, it was far from clear, and the fact that you continue to argue the toss suggests to me that there was little intended.

    Regardless, let's look at what you posted. There's more to history than simply reading books - you have to do so with a critical eye and set the source in context. Charles Henry Ashdown's unreferenced word constitutes a secondary source. The examples Blair collated are primary.

    Ashdown's work carries the excuse that he was writing forty years ago. Academic work since using primary sources has not only superceded it - it directly contradicts it. Not only this, but as far as I know there is no primary source material cited by Ashdown or anyone else to support his claim.

    The myth of the "true claymore" was built on a flawed linguistic inference that a literal translation "great sword" must inherently refer to a larger weapon than the basket hilt. Like any myth, repetition by authoritative figures ensured its persistence. As this thread goes to show.

    Have you read the Blair article? Can you tell me why his work (and his sources) are invalid and should be discounted?
    Last edited by Jonathan S Ferguson; 10-08-2008 at 05:59 PM.

  11. #111
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    JSF, obviously this zoomed right by you, and that's ok. And obviously, Glen got it!
    As for the article, I thank you for posting it. It's a very informative read.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry Z~G View Post
    JSF, obviously this zoomed right by you, and that's ok. And obviously, Glen got it!
    As for the article, I thank you for posting it. It's a very informative read.
    Well, if so I'm clearly not the only one. Of course, text is not a good medium for subtle humour, so if you'd like to explain the joke I've missed, please go ahead. I'll be very pleased to admit my error and apologise.

  13. #113
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    Your not the only one for sure, I've gone over it a few times and it's still way over my head. How about treating us to a simple explaination of what you said Dmitry then it'll be OK. Or if Glen got it maybe he'd be so kind as to share?
    David Gray

  14. #114
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    Quite honestly,

    It is all way beyond off topic in this thread. For quite some years, I have used a kind of rotating post script. Hotspur was my username here before the real name rule. Some others might have noted I use the Percy crescent as an avatar. Not so long ago (in the grand scheme of things) David Lewis Smith adopted the occasional use of Icepick and a post script. In a round about fashion, Dmitry is thumbing his nose at David with the use of something from the bard's Henry IV (which, as some may know is also about the Welsh rebellion of the early 15th century and the players involved). David Lewis Smith is free to do as he pleases in his postscripts, yet he may encounter the need for explanation from time to time as I have for the years and years I have been signing off posts in that fashion.

    Whether or not Dmitry read the thread before responding may or may not have influenced his opinion on whether a basket-hilted broadsword might be considered a claymore. As all other respondants to the thread have had their right to respond with opinion accepted, it seems a little arbitrary and even shallow to then rebuke Dmitry for stating an opinion. As with much internet communication, inflection may be less apparent than in face to face conversation. Having met Dmitry, I can put a face and expression to most of his posts but there are times that even I may wonder what his emotional momentum at any given instance might be. This, of course, is at times true talking to someone in person. I've added a frame of me in a typically Glen mood.

    All in all, it is Much Ado About Nothing and actually not anymore out of place than many posts in this thread. If someone feels strongly about excluding certain participants from responding to a given topic, make sure they know before you initiate a discussion here.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I say a round on the house might quell such uprising and misunderstood banter. A round of what would be the next debate. Mark will likely raise his eybrows again if I ask for a wine spritzer
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Glen C.; 10-10-2008 at 10:15 AM. Reason: image added

  15. #115
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    OK thanks for taking the time to explain that Glen, I gather your generally calm, easy going and relaxed thats a good way to be, keep it up.
    David Gray

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