Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 115

Thread: This is a Claymore

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    542
    I'm a little bemused as to what the argument is here? I'm leaping in at the end so if this a jovial micky take then forgive my misconception.

    A Claymore is the Highland version of the Hand-and-a-half or Bastard sword dating from about the 16th century. Images of one can be found here:

    http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html


    The Basket hilted single-handed sword, commonly misnamed the "Claymore" by the Tourist Board (thanks to C19th water muddying) is a later development. Indeed, pictures of one can be found here:

    http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/armour-class.html.
    Nuki .. OUCH!

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis Smith View Post

    I will return the ball to your court with this question, if the Scots did not call basket hilted swords Claymores, what did they call them?

    Don't just answer broadsword or backsword, show the supporting documents just as you have asked others to show it
    "British Military Swords" by John Wilkinson Latham page 30, plate 29 a Basket Hilted Broadsword, present day, He doesn't mention the word Claymore in the book. Broadswords would be my answer and I don't believe I asked anyone to show documents.
    David Gray

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    You are so right M.A. Beardmore and I have some more documentation for David Lewis. These are from "McIan's Costumes of the Clans of Scotland" printed in 1845. Keep going for more I can't fit it in one post. So as early or late depending how you want to look at it they were calling basket hilts broadswords. This is before the tourist board of course.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    The first writting describes this man.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    David Gray

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    another broadsword
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    and now for a reality check on what a claymore was in 1845
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    David Gray

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    they didn't spell it the same though.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    David Gray

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Fayetteville North Carolina
    Posts
    6,846
    ill get back to you later on this evening heading to work now dave.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis Smith View Post
    I think the evidence of usage stands against you.

    The bit of Scots Gaelic at the bottom could support your argument or simply mean, 'this is a great sword and i am really happy to have such a great sword'.

    I dont think it means that, it probably does mean a 'great big honking English chopping sword' but common use made it mean all swords. It is rather like the 'Roman Short Sword' the Romans did not call it that, they used a word that meant 'sword'.

    Mor is an adjective denoting size David, it's from the same celtic root as the Welsh Mawr which is better translated as Big.


    Icepick:
    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis Smith View Post
    Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding
    (Heavy Horses is a better album though)

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. Beardmore View Post
    I'm a little bemused as to what the argument is here? I'm leaping in at the end so if this a jovial micky take then forgive my misconception.

    A Claymore is the Highland version of the Hand-and-a-half or Bastard sword dating from about the 16th century. Images of one can be found here:

    http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html


    The Basket hilted single-handed sword, commonly misnamed the "Claymore" by the Tourist Board (thanks to C19th water muddying) is a later development. Indeed, pictures of one can be found here:

    http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/armour-class.html.
    Let's put this one to rest, shall we? I see David trying to show exactly this - that the use of the word as applied to the broadsword is a Victorian thing. I'm afraid that this is pointless. It's like picking up a Coke can from your desk with a use by date of Feb 2009 (or whenever) and claiming that Coke was only named as such on that date. If you were trying to determine when Coke was named, you have to find the earliest references to the name. Same here. I've already pointed David to the relevant book, but in the spirit of the internet, let's lay the relevant history out here;

    Once again, from Claude Blair's article/book chapter;

    ...forty or fifty stately fellows in their short hose and belted
    plaids, armed each of them with a well-fixed gun on his shoulder, a
    strong handsome target, with a sharp-pointed steel of above half an ell
    in length screwed into the navel of it, on his left arm, a sturdy
    claymore by his side, and a pistol or two, with a dirk and knife, in his
    belt
    -"The Loch Lomond Expedition with some short Reflections on the Perth Manifesto", 1715.

    I immediately drew my sword, and cried CLAYMORE! Cluny did the same, and we ran down to the bottom ditch, clearing the diagonal hedges as we went.
    -"Marches of the Highland Army" by Lord George Murray (his own memoir, first recorded just after the '45)

    Blair then cites a series of quotes from the "Lyon in Mourning" by Forbes, compiled slightly later (1748). You can check these for yourself online.

    ...delivering up his good claymore and his fine pistol...
    ...having got himself provided in a claymore, durk, and pistol...
    And showing that "broadsword" and "claymore" were already synonymous (referring to Prince Charlie);
    ...a suite of Highland clothes with a broadsword in his hand.../...After the Prince had got himself equipt in the Highland clothes with the claymore in his hand...
    ...they wear a broad Sword, which they call a Clymore (sic), a Stroke of which would be
    -"A Full and Particular Description of the Highlands of Scotland", 1752.

    se langs claymore pe po my side,
    I'll nefer marry tee, Mattam.
    -"Had awa' Frae Me, Donald", 1760.

    It should be clear from the date and more importantly the context (e.g. "by his side") of each of these that what is being referred to is the basket hilted broadsword, not the two-handed Highland sword.

    Which was also known as "claymore"...
    ...See here a Cly-more (sic), or great two-handed sword...
    -A Tour in Scotland and Voyage to the Hebrides", 1772.

    Here's the clincher;
    ...and his Glaymore (sic), which was wielded with both hands, and is of a prodigious size...The broadsword now used, though called the Glaymore (i.e. the great sword,) is much smaller than that used in Rorie More's time.[/b]
    -"Journal of a Tour to the Hebrides with Samuel Johnson", 1773.

    Blair concludes by pointing out that the largely Gaelic-speaking Cameron Highlanders of the early C19th were using the word "claymore" despite the fact that the official British army term was "Highland" or "basket" hilted.

    Bottom line - you can call it whatever you like, but you certainly can't claim that the basket hilt was somehow not a claymore. History shows otherwise. All of the above pre-date McIan's spurious paintings and descriptions, which, if anything show the beginning of the rise to dominance of "broadsword" and "basket-hilt" over "claymore" that ended up in the denial of the legitimacy of "claymore" by ill-informed Victorian writers. For this reason it's ironic that you would invoke such a source. Those I've given are both pre-Victorian and pre-"tourist board".

    For interested readers, there are various ways around the confusion resulting from the dual-use name, but Blair suggests using "two-hand claymore" and "basket-hilted claymore". Those preferring to avoid it altogether can apply "claymore" to just one of them, or to neither of them - and still be correct.

    Returning briefly to the original topic;
    Quote Originally Posted by David Gray
    Will you let me call it a two handed Lowland Claymore Jonathan?
    I can't make you do anything, David. I'm simply suggesting that "lowland claymore" is a contradiction in terms, since claymore (and the original Gaelic) was always applied to Highland swords (of both types) for obvious reasons. If you're looking for compromise, you could actually say we don't know how widespread that type might have been in the highlands as well as the lowlands. But yours would still be a misleading neologism in my opinion, especially as you don't know the provenance of this particular example. I'm not trying to do you down here, David, it's a wonderful looking piece. This is purely in the interests of accuracy and clarity. And of filling my lunch break of course.
    Last edited by Jonathan S Ferguson; 06-25-2008 at 05:37 AM.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    These pictures show what the writter was talking about in 1845, 100years after Colloden, describing your claymores as broadswords and claymores as claymores. I sugest when Claude is writting he is talking about claymores and broadswords, perhaps even mixing them up. If the broadsword was called a claymore why didn't they call it so in 1845 the term should've been used by then if they were using it when you say.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    this is not quite a full basket
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    It wasn't till after 1845 they opted to call broadswords claymores. There are shorter claymores worn on the side and I do have a picture of one but duty calls and I go, but this is a broadsword.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Flagstaff,AZ
    Posts
    1,366
    The literary evidence points to the term being applied to both types of sword, this has been clearly shown here and was known to many of us before this discussion. Some may prefer to apply the term to one or the other in modern usage, but without specific and exclusive evidence for the origin of the term this argument can linger indefinitely with nothing but opinions and feelings to make it worthwhile. If anyone has evidence that is clear, specific, and is known to pre-date the literature already quoted previously, then by all means share it and put the argument to rest.
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    For another look at a broadsword go to any site that sells Scottish swords and you'll see Scottish basket hilted broad or back swords not claymores unless they're the big sword, and there's lots of sites out there. Why does John Wilkinson not even mention claymore in his book? but he does call them basket hilted broadswords?
    David Gray

  16. #66
    Jonathan F. has made a clear case for applying the term "claymore" to basket hilts. He has demonstrated through multiple primary sources (from the 18th century) that "claymore" was used interchangeably with "broadsword" to describe basket-hilted swords. John Wilkinson was an accomplished scholar of antique arms, but he is not a primary source and therefore he does not have the final word on what is or is not a claymore.

    Jonathan

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    North East USA
    Posts
    3,073
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    John Wilkinson was an accomplished scholar of antique arms, but he is not a primary source and therefore he does not have the final word on what is or is not a claymore.
    Perhaps Mr. Wilkinson simply opted not to use the term at all in order to avoid the same sort of controversy that seems to have manifested here?
    mark@swordforum.com

    ~ Hostem Hastarum Cuspidibus Salutemus ~

    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't."
    Benjamin Franklin

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark McMorrow View Post
    Perhaps Mr. Wilkinson simply opted not to use the term at all in order to avoid the same sort of controversy that seems to have manifested here?
    Well met, Mark. Well met.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    542
    I have to say that I may well be in the process of fulfilling my 'learn something every day' quota.

    Jonathon, I was going to ask if you could point me to the appropriate reference works so I could have a read on the background myself but I just noted a long post from your good-self above :tup:.

    It'd be a great courtesy if you could PM me the book details tho', I would be far from averse to trying to obtain copies for research.

    Already, however, I can see from what you quoted that the term was applied more loosely than I envisaged in earlier writings. I shouldn't be surprised as you get the same thing with other weapons and artifacts - particularly when looking at written works that are not either texts by historians or primary sources. Poets and 'gentlemen scholars' are sometimes a little casual with their terminology .

    Plus, of course, sometimes a codification of terms does not occur until much later.

    Anyhow, thanks for shining a light on a misconception I've held for along time.
    Nuki .. OUCH!

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,030
    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis Smith View Post
    i believe it is a running fox, and that could be Krupp
    I am not 100% sure on this, and not sure where i read that

    Glen?
    The Krupp (sorry, no umlaut) family is first mentioned in merchant guild records at the end of the 16th century and not truly associated with making steel until the end of the 18th century. As thw wolf of Passau goes back at least as far as the 14th century, association seems slim in the original context. They were never cutlers, or blade makers.

    Fulvio Del Tin did use Krupp CK55 steel in his reproduction blades up until sometime in the 1990s when he switched over to the equivilant of 6150. He also did use the running wolf of Passau on some of his reproductions. Perhaps that is where you have read of a connection.

    The book entitled The Arms Of Krupp, by William Raymond Manchester, is an interesting read and it filled a few weeks of lunches when I worked for the publisher. I used to spend that time in the warehouse archive stacks and it was one title that drew my attention. Originally published by Little, Brown & Co. in 1968, I believe it is again in print as a paperback.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I see some hardcover copies out there through the booksellers

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by David gray View Post
    It wasn't till after 1845 they opted to call broadswords claymores. There are shorter claymores worn on the side and I do have a picture of one but duty calls and I go, but this is a broadsword.
    David, I'm saddened that you won't do me the courtesy of acknowledging the evidence I've posted, but luckily it speaks for itself regardless. There are grey areas in this argument, but "claymore" being historically applied to the broadsword is not one of them. I have to wonder why you fixating on the 1840s - those quotes jibe perfectly with those I've posted - "broadsword" was concurrent with "claymore" for the basket-hilt, and only really fell out of favour when the military fixed the definition, and certain arms writers decided arbitrarily that "claymore" should only be applied to the two-hander (hence your references). But I don't think there's much more I can add at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. Beardmore View Post
    I have to say that I may well be in the process of fulfilling my 'learn something every day' quota.

    Jonathon, I was going to ask if you could point me to the appropriate reference works so I could have a read on the background myself but I just noted a long post from your good-self above :tup:.

    It'd be a great courtesy if you could PM me the book details tho', I would be far from averse to trying to obtain copies for research.

    Already, however, I can see from what you quoted that the term was applied more loosely than I envisaged in earlier writings. I shouldn't be surprised as you get the same thing with other weapons and artifacts - particularly when looking at written works that are not either texts by historians or primary sources. Poets and 'gentlemen scholars' are sometimes a little casual with their terminology .

    Plus, of course, sometimes a codification of terms does not occur until much later.

    Anyhow, thanks for shining a light on a misconception I've held for along time.
    No need to thank me, this was work done by other people much more knowledgeable and experienced than me, notably Claude Blair. But I'm happy to be of service.

    I've sent a PM, but for the benefit of anyone reading the thread, the "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" book is referenced over on myarmoury.com;

    http://www.myarmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=0859760472

    Unfortunately it only seems to have got the one edition, and is tough to get hold of.
    Last edited by Jonathan S Ferguson; 06-25-2008 at 01:09 PM.

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    Ok Jonathan I'm bleeding bad you got me, I give, it's very humbling to find out I've been wrong about this all my life. You are very convincing sir and have given me some interesting and useful reading material to get hold of, or try to. All I can do is look on the bright side I've aquired more claymores.
    Best Regards
    David Gray

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    Before everyone says "not him again" I'm on the other side now. David Lewis asking me to find documents was a good idea it forced me to read my own books. So just stick it out a bit longer and read these. This is from the same 1845 book.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Gray

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Perth Scotland
    Posts
    1,008
    This is the last one but I won't promise, I might find more yet. From Frank Adam's "The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" this book has 620 plus pages but they spared a few lines at the bottom of one page to say this. I apologise to everyone for being so stuburn, set in my ways and going around with blinders on.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    David Gray

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Mississippi, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,862
    Quote Originally Posted by Arne S View Post
    As I brought up the word sober earlier in this thread I have once again turned to the bottle for answers.......



    Now that, my friend, is an intoxicating explanation of the term. I see all the proof that I need. Its not the first time that I've had the mysteries of the world solved by looking into a bottle of booze.

    See, all you guys had to do was sit down and have a drink and the issue would have been resolved.

    Andre
    Last edited by A.Ducote; 06-26-2008 at 08:17 AM. Reason: needed even more humor
    Andre F. Ducote
    Mississippi

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •