Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 43

Thread: indian martial arts - shastar vidiya

  1. #1

    indian martial arts - shastar vidiya

    Hi all

    My name is Harvinder, I am a practitioner of a indian battlefield martial art called shastar vidiya, I thought I would introduce the art to people of this forum and so people can ask questions about it and I will try and answer any questions you may have...

    this art is amazing!!!! as a Sikh, this helps me bring me back to my roots, of how my ancestors would have fought as a lot of sikhs during 17-19th century learned this art.

    I shall not go on and on about it yet! as it is late and I need some sleep, so I hope you guys will check out the following links and have a look through the website, dont be afraid to ask any questions you may have.

    my class has a open challenge to anyone wishing to test the art out against theirs, this is known as 'hadh thoor' if there is anyone who thinks they can defeat my gurdev (instructor) come forward to the akara(class) and take up the challenge. http://shastarvidiya.org/challenge.jsp

    like I said, I will answer any questions you may have....

    www.shastarvidiya.org

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

    regards

    Nihang Harvinder Singh.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  2. #2
    bump
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    The 'Hood :)
    Posts
    123
    This woman approves.

    Read on the website that women historically fought with the men. Any train at your school currently?
    Lidia Chachanashvili

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lidia View Post
    This woman approves.

    Read on the website that women historically fought with the men. Any train at your school currently?

    yeah there is a few here and there depending what location of the class you go to.....example london has a few.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  5. #5
    a few years back on a martial arts magazine

    Shastarvidiya - Indian Martial Arts by Krishan Godhania

    As a native of India, I have always had an interest in the vast array of traditional Indian Martial Arts. Locating such martial arts is difficult; teachers in India are highly secretive by nature. This is due to the deadly nature of these battlefield arts; the treasured knowledge is passed only to a select few. Nidar Singh - who has been practising the art of Shastarvidiya for over two decades and is perhaps the senior gutu of this particular art in the UK - shares the background and development of this ancient martial art.

    Krishna Godhania: What is Shastarvidiya?

    Nidar Singh: Shastar literally means weapons, Vidiya means knowledge. Shaster Vidiya is the name of traditional Indian martial arts of Northern India.

    KG: Can you tell us briefly about the history of Shastervidiya?

    NS: There is no single source of history of Shaster Vidiya. There are a number of mythological Indian stories regards the origins of Shastar Vidiya. One that is popularly spoken of by Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, is how once the king of Indian demigods Indira, defeated by demon Muru, fled from thefield of battle. Then Brahma (Hindu God of creation), as commanded by highest God, lit a great sacrificial fire. Then on composing the mystical incantation, Brahma Kavch (still recited by Akali Nihang warriors for protection to this day) offered sacrifices and praised God's divine power Goddess Chandi as a sword. She then manifested herself as Goddess Asi (sword). Taking hold of the sword, the demigods Vishna, Shiva, Indira, etc. defeated their demonic foes. This sword was then passed to the great Sage Manu (Noah of India). He created the Khashtriya (Indian martial) cast and gave then the Asi and all its knowledge of Shaster Vidiya. In time this Vidiya was taught in the great ancient university city of Taxila (now in Northern Pakistan) from where Buddhist monks took it to China and beyond. The Sikh warriors of the 16th century founded by Guru Nanak (1469-1539) are the inheritors of this ancient Khashtriya Indian martial tradition.

    KG: Is it unique to India or was it influenced by other oriental martial arts?

    NS: The art is basically unique to India but in the past it was influenced by Arabic and Persian arts, such as 'Shamshir Baji', both through friendly and hostile interaction.

    KG: What areas of combat does it cover, eg unarmed combat, warfare and street?

    NS: The art exists at four levels.
    Sava Raksha - Traditional, Unarmed, armed self-defence techniques.
    Greh Rakha - Tradtional tactics and strategies of home-defence.
    Goah Rakhia - Tradtional tactics and strategies of village-defence.
    Jangi Vidiya - Traditionan Indian Sikh battlefield techniques.

    KG: It seems to specialize in using strategy and deception. How would you employ this in a one against many opponents situation?

    NS: Knowing the appropriate strategy and employing the appropriate tactics is the key to success in this art. The best strategies and tactics are, on the whole, though not always, concealed from the opponent. So the Vidiya is very devious and deceptive in application. What you don't see coming has the most impact. As for one fighting against many and what strategies and tactics are to be employed in this situation; it depends on the scenario. One simple strategy is to explode the the approaching opponents then, staying on the periphery, close in and aggresively herd them together knocking them all off-balance, confusing their sense of direction. Then appropriately using them as shields, making them obstacles for each other, quickly mixing amongst them and dispatching them employing unarmed or weapon techniques. Do not pull away from them and let them gain balance or space for maneuverability, pile them togehter and cut or strike them down. This strategy is known as Satha Vashona (clumping and cutting down crops to lay in the field) in Shaster Vidiya.

    KG: Is there a spiritual side, I hear about a 'warrior yoga' you teach?

    NS: Yes, there is a deep spiritual tradition. It incorporates a special form of dynamic martial Yoga, 'Sanjam Kiriya Viriyam', the self-disciplining excercises of a Sikh warrior.

    KG: You mentioned battle with external foes and internal ones, could you elaborate on this.

    NS: External foes are Dusht Dokhian meaning evil beings who cause pain to others. They disrupt the universal Dharma. Internal foes are the vices within Man. Chief amongst them are five: Kaam (illegitimate lust), Krodha (Out of context anger), Lobh (inappropriate material desire), Moh (misplaced love) and Hankar (Egocentricity).

    KG: Do you have any texts or scriptures on war and battle?

    NS: Yes, there are two main martial texts amongst the Akali Nihangs. Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar both authored by the great warrior Akali Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708).

    KG: Tell us about the ancient Sikh warrior traditions like hunting and applying blood to weapons and battle standards. Do you still maintain these? Is this relevant in today's modern world?

    NS: Since ancient times hunting has been part and parcel of Indian warrior tradition. To build and test their courage ancient Hindu, Sikh, Mogul and other warriors would engage tigers, bears, elephants, etc. in single combat using a variety of weapons on foot or horse back. Today the Khalsa Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, in order to maintain their martial spirit, still hunt as much as modern times allow or more generally decapitate goats and with its blood anoint their weaponsm standards, battle drums and the foreheads of warriors. For Akali Nihangs these traditions are as relevant today as in the past, in the sense that they keep them attached to their martial heritage.

    KG: Some people would say, what is the point of training with a sword when an AK-47 would do the job a lot quicker. What is your view?

    NS: Akali Nihang warriors in India do keep and train in use of all forms of modern firearms such as AK-47, but the AK-47 alone cannot attach a Sikh to his martial history, heritage, ideology or philosophy. Any undisciplined Tom, Dick or Harry may pick up an AK-47 and kill, as in the 1980s during the nightmare years of terrorism in the Punjab. Swordsmanship and its related arts take years of assiduous disciplined training. These long years of hard training under the guidance of a Gurdev (master) forge the spirit, mind and body, tempering it with all the best qualities of an enlightened soul such as morality, ethics, character, intellect, wisdom, physical-mental discipline and spiritual equipoise. All these are the qualities of a true Sikh warrior. Such warriors upholding Dharma seek to bring peace and prosperity to all. In contrast, the AK-47, weapon of choice of most terrorists in the world, in the hands of undisciplined fools gives nothing but death and suffering.

    KG: On your website, a Nihang Warrior is seen decapitating a goat (on video). How is this related to your martial art?

    NS: Chatka (to kill quickly) is the fundamental principle behind Shaster Vidiya. Chatka does not come easy to humans even though they may sit down with their ham sandwich and munch away. Ask most meat eaters would you have killed, skinned and cooked what you eat? The answer in most cases would be 'no'. Humans have a natural aversion to killing, so Sikh warriors, in order to overcome this natural human inhibition to kill and shed blood, decapitate goats. Goats are chosen, apart from the obvious fact they are a good source of meat and leather, because a mature goat's neck is very close in size to a human neck. Akali Nihang warriors state that the same amount of force is required to decapitate a goat as humans, so it is good martial strategy. Once decapitated, the cutting and butchering of the goat also serves to help overcome the human inhibition to shed blood.

    KG: Each of the forms you demonstrated were based upon Hindu Gods in animal forms. Could you describe these a little and their effectiveness in combat?

    NS: These Khat Ang Yudhan (Six classical combat forms) are:
    1. Virah Yudhan (Wild Boar form) characterised by explosive close quater multiple strikes to bodies 107 Marma.
    2. Sheshnag Yudhan (Cobra from) characterised by close quater fluid strikes and limb-snaring, joint-breaking, dislocating and choking techniques.
    3. Garrur Yudhan (Eagle/Gander/Peacock/Cockerel form) characterised by angling off opponent to maneuver around opponent to devastate with a long-range barrage of hand and foot strikes to Marma.
    4. Nandi Pentra (Bull form) characterised by close quarter explosive digging strikes and stand up grappling and body mangling techniques.
    5. Nar Singha Yudhan (Tiger form) characterised bu evasive hypnotic footwork with sudden pouncing attacks to take opponent down to ground fighting.
    6. Hanuman Yudhan (Langur monkey form) characterised by low ground hugging baiting postures. It is strong in low high explosive adroit attacks to take the opponent down to the ground to destroy but quickly springing up so as not to get entangled in ground fighting.

    Each of the Pentras (forms) are highly effective by themselvesm but when combined they are most effective.

    KG: There is a huge variety in bladed weapons, what are your favourite weapons and why?

    NS: Shaster Vidiya has the largest range of weaponry of any martial art in the world. To say that any particular one is my favourite is impossible. I get pleasure in training with all the weapons of the art in particular the mind and spirit.

    KG: Some of our readers may have seen 'Gatka' (more popular Sikh martial art) being demonstrated around the UK on Sikh festivals. How is Shastervidiya different and why is it virtually unheard of, even in Sikh circles?

    NS: Gatka is a Sikh martial exhibitionist art, which evolve under the restrictions of the British Raj in the 1860s. Shastervidiya is the original Sikh combat art that, under the restrictions of the British Raj, went underground. Due to Shaster Vidiya's secretive nature, not even many Sikhs now know of its true form. Today, because mention of Shaster Vidiya is still found in ancient Sikh texts, you will still occasionally hear of its name amongst Sikhs. Though on a whole at present the general Sikh public, including practitioners of Gatka, are confusing the tmasha (circus act) of Gatka with Shaster Vidiya.

    KG: How easy and practical is it to learn?
    NS: The self-defence aspect of Shaster Vidiya is very practical and easy to learn. On the other hand, the classical battlefield aspect of Shaster Vidiya with its classical Pentras and live blade sparring is extremely practical and effective in application, but it is not very easy to learn.

    KG: Does it cater for women and children?
    NS: Yes it does. Children, women and adult males are taught in seperate syllabuses.

    KG: Do you have a grading structure like belts or sashes?
    NS: No.

    KG: In your opinion, what makes Shaster Vidiya unique as compared to Eskrima or Wushu?
    NS: In terms of character, Shaster Vidiya is unique in its Punjabi Indian-ness. In terms of technique its unique in the vast array of strategies, tactics and techniques it enshrines, combining the six classical forms. Further, its uniqueness lis in the manner it combines unarmed techniques with weapons. Even the attire of the Akali Nihang warrior from his bracelets to the arrowhead protusion from the top of his war turban are but deadly weapons. Yet the most outstanding uniqueness of this ancient art, which strikes all its observers, lies in its exceptionally fluid footwork and technique.

    KG: How long hav you been learning and teaching this martial art?

    NS: Over 20 years.

    KG: Are there many masters of this art?

    NS: As guns became more popular the emphasis on this art decreased in the itinierant Akali Nihang armies. Today there are not many masters of this art alive. The ones I know, if still alive, are Nihang Baba Ram Singh in UP, India and Bhai Ranjit Singh of Patiala who has partial knowledge of this art. There are no doubt others in Budha Dal (oldest Sikh martial order established in 1606) but they being itinerant mendicants of secretive nature, are not easy to track down.

    KG: Plesae tell us of any real-live encounters where yu have had to use this knowledge to protect yourself or others?

    NS: In self-defence, it is taught to circumvent and avoid violence where possible. Only a fool goes seeking violence. Yet over the years I have encountered knife, stick, sword etc. attacks. One Nihang fool I disarmed and knocked out in Anandpur sought to shoot me. I have also encountered mobs in Delhi targetting Sikhs. Each time my Vidiya stood me well. In the UK I have had numerous indiviuals test my art in the Akhara. Our Baba Darbara Singh Akhara established in the middle of the 17th century allows for anyone to come and challenge the Akhara master. It is challenges that keep the Vidiya strong.

    KG: Does one have to be a Sikh to learn this art?

    NS: No, the art is open to all of any race, creed, religion or colour provided they make these three pledges:
    Not to abuse the art.
    Not to sell the art.
    Not to teach anyone who does not pledge to the above two pledges.

    KG: You don't have set fees - how are your classes funded?

    NS: Each student according to his/her capacity, gives monetary contribution as they salute weapons and ancient Gurdevs at the beginning of each class.

    KG: Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the readers of Martial Arts Illustrated.

    NS: Its my pleasure, thankyou Krishna for giving me this opportunity to further propogate Shastarvidiya.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    The 'Hood :)
    Posts
    123
    In contrast, the AK-47, weapon of choice of most terrorists in the world, in the hands of undisciplined fools gives nothing but death and suffering.
    I really wish this attitude toward modern weapons would just die. The most important words in his sentence are "undisciplined fool" Don't blame an ak47 for someone's deficiency in morals.

    Good interview otherwise.
    Lidia Chachanashvili

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    399

    Thank you

    First off Mr Singh, Thank you for posting this. I am quite sure it is a fascinating martial art that I would RELISH the chance to study ( I love the somewhat rare arts and the history and tradition behind them). Again I am in Texas in the mid of nowhere but if i ever get the chance....ALSO, you are a Sikh you said? Again absolutely outstanding. I had the chance once to see the Sikh officers in their dress uniform that work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The RCMP's allowed their Sikh officers to keep their beards and their dress uniform was altered a little bit to favor the cultural difference of the Sikh officers and they were also allowed to retain their knife(forgive my i dont know its traditional name but it looked like a jambiyah) and it was sheathed and carried tucked into their belts in front. They also wore their turban as a part of their dress uniform. All i can remember thinking when i saw them was how completely professional and how AMAZING they looked in their uniforms. They were completely nice, professional, and i was utterly speachless at how ..well...nice those uniforms with the changes looked. I was in awe. Sorry off topic but i just wanted to share that tale.
    E TAN, E EPI TAS

  8. #8
    greetings Craig,

    this art is very fascinating every class I attend it just pulls you in with his beauty....

    if your ever in the UK there are always classes in London and the west-midlands...

    That is correct I am a follower of the Sikh FAITH.

    the 'sikh knife' in modern terms is called a 'Kirpan' and it looks like this (see link)
    http://www.athleticbusiness.com/edit...ads/kirpan.jpg

    but as a Sikh if you have heard this we are a martial race and our last Sikh Guru did tell us to bear arms, the dagger I showed is what Modern day sikhs would carry, personally I wouldnt carry one of those because our Guru did not bound us to one weapon. The Sikhs of the old carried minimum 5 weapons of different kinds, a tulwar, a matchlock, axe, dagger, katar.

    see this image of a traditional Akali Nihang Soldier...as you can see the vast array of weapons he has in his 'kammakassa' (waistbelt)

    http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...06686_1066.jpg

    http://www.britishbattles.com/first-...sikh-akali.jpg

    I recommend this book which talks about the sikh warriors, its pictures range from paintings from the sikh gurus time to the current age..

    http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Saints...0552437&sr=8-1

    very good book on sikh warrior culture...

    back to my point the kirpan as a sikh I would go for the more traditional weapons such as a pesh kabz or a choora, but thats my view...

    I remember the queen has two sikh bodyguards http://www.hindustantimes.com/Sikhs-...e1-437470.aspx


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Holt View Post
    First off Mr Singh, Thank you for posting this. I am quite sure it is a fascinating martial art that I would RELISH the chance to study ( I love the somewhat rare arts and the history and tradition behind them). Again I am in Texas in the mid of nowhere but if i ever get the chance....ALSO, you are a Sikh you said? Again absolutely outstanding. I had the chance once to see the Sikh officers in their dress uniform that work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The RCMP's allowed their Sikh officers to keep their beards and their dress uniform was altered a little bit to favor the cultural difference of the Sikh officers and they were also allowed to retain their knife(forgive my i dont know its traditional name but it looked like a jambiyah) and it was sheathed and carried tucked into their belts in front. They also wore their turban as a part of their dress uniform. All i can remember thinking when i saw them was how completely professional and how AMAZING they looked in their uniforms. They were completely nice, professional, and i was utterly speachless at how ..well...nice those uniforms with the changes looked. I was in awe. Sorry off topic but i just wanted to share that tale.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    399

    knew there was a pic somewhere

    I knew there was a pic of one of their SGTs somewhere it is in this link.

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

    I understand the martial race thing I am Apache/Cherokee.
    E TAN, E EPI TAS

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Holt View Post
    I knew there was a pic of one of their SGTs somewhere it is in this link.

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

    I understand the martial race thing I am Apache/Cherokee.
    he looks smart...
    could you tell me more about the Apache/Cherokee race Ive never come across it...would be interesting, could you PM me about it...

    also I am well let me rephrase that I wish I was of 'Nihang Origin' I have called myself a 'Nihang' on this website but I havent been baptized by Nihangs so i cannot call myself as one But I do follow their ideologies and traditions and class myself as one, but I havent got time to go to india to be baptized as I have other commitments which stop me from.....

    regards
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    639
    Hello Harvinder,

    Thank you very much for posting this. I was going to ask you about the Nihang title but you've answered this.

    I remember well the debates we've had here in Toronto about the wear of turbans and the kirpan. The kirpan especially was problematic at first. A young Sikh boy was suspended from school at some point for "conceiling a weapon". Since then I've found that once people understand the significance of these items, they are quite all right with the idea.

    Regards,
    Emanuel
    Always check your assumptions...there are no contradictions.
    Get some real news...
    www.informationclearinghouse.info
    www.counterpunch.org
    http://globalresearch.ca

  12. #12
    turbans arent cultural for sikhs people always assume that...sikhs HAVE to wear turbans. It is apart of the sikh faith to have long hair and tie turbans to cover the hair...
    same about the 'kirpan'.

    any Q you may have dont hesitate to ask...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel Nicolescu View Post
    Hello Harvinder,

    Thank you very much for posting this. I was going to ask you about the Nihang title but you've answered this.

    I remember well the debates we've had here in Toronto about the wear of turbans and the kirpan. The kirpan especially was problematic at first. A young Sikh boy was suspended from school at some point for "conceiling a weapon". Since then I've found that once people understand the significance of these items, they are quite all right with the idea.

    Regards,
    Emanuel
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420
    Hello Emanuel -

    The kirpan issue does come up from time to time, but Canadian schools do allow Sikh children the right to wear the kirpan; I can't think of a Canadian jurisdiction where it isn't allowed.

    Not too long ago, the matter made headlines in Quebec, with an elementary school student being suspended/expelled for wearing a kirpan. Note: As you're no doubt aware, Quebec has a unique place in Canada, and, to some degree, struggles with questions of identity and culture more-so than other provinces. Moreover, Quebec has traditionally not had the immigration other provinces like Ontario and B.C. have had, so is relatively new at addressing issues like the kirpan.

    Anyhow, the Quebec (Montreal) case went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, where the 7 judges held unanimously in favour of the Sikh child's right to wear the kirpan.

    Question really becomes one of accommodation - how far do you go or not go, and safety as well. Sikhs have been in Canada for over a century, and there has never been an incident (as far as I am aware) of a Sikh student using the kirpan as a weapon.

    On the other hand, baseball bats, hockey sticks, pens, pencils, wet towels, have all been used for violence in Canadian schools..... so, if these items with a track record of violence are allowed, why not an article of faith with no history of violence in the schoolyard (for over 100 years)?

    I think there will always be a segment of the population which will be uncomfortable with the kirpan, but I've found most to be understanding when I've discussed its significance as an article of faith (and its history in schools).

    Then again, there are those who are dead-set against it, and have no interest in hearing about its religious significance, statistics, facts, accommodation etc.

    Generally, I've found these people to be uncomfortable with different ethnic groups in their midst, and they're often the ones advising others to "leave Canada, and go back to where you came from" - notwithstanding the fact, some 'ethnic types' like myself are third/fourth generation Canadians

    regards,
    Perpinder

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420
    Hello Harvinder,

    I had a look at the video link in your signature. I don't have a lot of familiarity with Niddar Singh but found the video interesting.

    Two points though:

    1. The term shastar-vidya simply translates into 'knowledge of weapons', while the video implies this is the name of a specific art. Moreover, while I can appreciate the marketing appeal of defining 'shastar-vidya' as seperate from 'gatka', I think it's different names for the same thing. For example, there are instructors who use the words gatka and shastar-vidya interchangeably.

    Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.

    There are many, many gatka practitioners who know no more than the showy, stick-twirling - very sad, especially when they believe it translates into actual combat techniques. That said, there are other gatka practioners who do know their stuff, and know it well. For example, you might go to a Muay Thai school, and find the instructors throw leg-kicks like karate point-fighters, and you might go to another MT school, where the instructor kicks like a champion from Lumpini Stadium. You'll find the same variance in gatka/shastar-vidya, and most other martial arts as well.


    2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.

    Niddar Singh may indeed be a good practitioner, and a knowledgable instructor, but there are other solid guys out there as well.

    Heck, take someone like Jathedar Baba Nihal Singh ji of Harian-Vela (the Taruna Dal) as an example. No offense, but when it comes to Sikh history, theology, and martial arts, he's probably forgotten more than Niddar Singh has learned. Not to mention Baba Nihal Singh has walked the walk, and is considered a legend and hero in the Sikh community - he isn't called 'Jinda-Shaheed' (the Living Martyr) for no reason! I was fortunate enough to train with him for a brief period of time - many years ago - he's the real deal.
    Niddar Singh is not the 'last remaining master'.

    I think the art and school can stand on the basis of its instruction, and claims like the above (my apologies if it was an error on the part of the narrator) are unnecessary and reduce credibility.

    regards,
    Perpinder Singh
    Last edited by Perpinder Singh; 12-14-2009 at 02:53 AM. Reason: spelling

  15. #15
    greetings.

    'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'

    disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
    I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy?

    you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.

    this is my point im making gatka is just show art in GATKA what do you get taught? a simple footwork which wont work in the battlefield context I did not mention anything about muay thai but im glad you brough this up. gatka teachers are now incorporating other martial arts into their gatka system why ? because gatka is not a martial art it cannot hold against other forms. for example lets say I am going to war I practise gatka...i have a tulwar katar a shield the main weapons of gatkabaj, im hitting the enemy's shield with my sword my sword would get blunt right? it could break most likely...i use my katar the same way, same thing happens, do you honestly believe the singhs had no unarmed combat system?!?!


    alright since you brought that up i suggest you go to the nihang chaunis and tell me who teaches the vidiya? no one? because they dont know it!!!! a few babeh know some low forms but thats about it. its laughable? well provide me your evidence on who teaches it? ill love to go to dal panth and learn from a Nihang there but truth is no one knows the FULL art. there have been word about so called 25 teachers in budha dal but why hasnt anyone given their names? or any information about them? there is a Baba gyana singh who does teach shastar vidiya BUT Niddar Singh has met him and he only knows some basic techniques. if there are babeh who do know the vidiya and have kept it gupt i suggest they should come out and teach...

    solid guys? like who give me names like I said....
    so you have learned shastar vidiya from akali baba nihal singh? I havent come across him knowing the vidiya, im sure he knows gatka, or maybe some low forms of shastar vidiya but that mahapursh sadly does not know the full vidiya.

    no offence to you but seeing as you can state all of this stuff why not come to the Akara seeing as if gatka and shastar vidiya are the same thing to you I think its best if you come and see the art rather then giving a baseless argument on how Niddar Singh Nihang isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya, hes been to punjab how many times? countless number of times he hasnt come across a single Nihang who knows the full art. If you think hes lying about him being the last gurdev do your research find a Nihang who knows the full art, challenge niddar about it why he is lying about it then.

    until you give me evidence of teachers of the vidiya currently, your statement niddar singh isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya is 'wack'

    2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.



    Quote Originally Posted by Perpinder Singh View Post
    Hello Harvinder,

    I had a look at the video link in your signature. I don't have a lot of familiarity with Niddar Singh but found the video interesting.

    Two points though:

    1. The term shastar-vidya simply translates into 'knowledge of weapons', while the video implies this is the name of a specific art. Moreover, while I can appreciate the marketing appeal of defining 'shastar-vidya' as seperate from 'gatka', I think it's different names for the same thing. For example, there are instructors who use the words gatka and shastar-vidya interchangeably.

    Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.

    There are many, many gatka practitioners who know no more than the showy, stick-twirling - very sad, especially when they believe it translates into actual combat techniques. That said, there are other gatka practioners who do know their stuff, and know it well. For example, you might go to a Muay Thai school, and find the instructors throw leg-kicks like karate point-fighters, and you might go to another MT school, where the instructor kicks like a champion from Lumpini Stadium. You'll find the same variance in gatka/shastar-vidya, and most other martial arts as well.


    2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.

    Niddar Singh may indeed be a good practitioner, and a knowledgable instructor, but there are other solid guys out there as well.

    Heck, take someone like Jathedar Baba Nihal Singh ji of Harian-Vela (the Taruna Dal) as an example. No offense, but when it comes to Sikh history, theology, and martial arts, he's probably forgotten more than Niddar Singh has learned. Not to mention Baba Nihal Singh has walked the walk, and is considered a legend and hero in the Sikh community - he isn't called 'Jinda-Shaheed' (the Living Martyr) for no reason! I was fortunate enough to train with him for a brief period of time - many years ago - he's the real deal.
    Niddar Singh is not the 'last remaining master'.

    I think the art and school can stand on the basis of its instruction, and claims like the above (my apologies if it was an error on the part of the narrator) are unnecessary and reduce credibility.

    regards,
    Perpinder Singh
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    639
    Hello Perpinder,

    We are in complete agreement. I'd forgotten the details about the case, montreal, not Toronto, but I'm familiar with the rest of the debate and the question of reasonable accomodation.

    I would very much like to get into this gatka/shastar vidiya discussion but my knowledge is far too limited. All I can say is that I've been surprised to find no mention of Shastar Vidiya here in Toronto, despite a sizable Sikh community.

    Gatka, in contrast, has gotten relatively popular. I've also found it showy and it seems to me that the blade on shield hitting is at best intended to teach students to catch the weapon on their dhal and not risk injury through paries. A "spinning" object hurts, be it stick or tulwar.

    The use of Gatka to keep alive some remnants of a tradition is commendable IMO, especially when the purpose of the Sikh religion as a military order/vocation is no longer as relevant around the world as it once was, or may be still, in India. In most western cultures and places the wear of weapons is forbidden and socially unacceptable. The opportunity to use swords and daggers, and therefore the focus on their teaching, are consequently limited.

    That said, I would like to see more of Shastar Vidiya here is Toronto. It is an impressive art, and, as a collector of Indian arms, I do appreciate the teaching of their use being kept alive.

    Cheers,
    Emanuel
    Always check your assumptions...there are no contradictions.
    Get some real news...
    www.informationclearinghouse.info
    www.counterpunch.org
    http://globalresearch.ca

  17. #17
    About the article I posted above, no one can claim shastar vidiya is a fake or it is the same as gatka because Niddar Singh demonstrated the art to Krishna Godhania (one of the leading authorities on Filipino Martial Arts in the UK and Europe www.krishnagodhania.com). He clearly understood how gatka and shastar vidiya are on two different ends of the spectrum.

    they both compared arts then Krishna interviewed Nihang Nidar Singh for the magazine ''martial arts illustrated'.
    If someone from a Filipino martial arts background such as khrisna who is amazing in his own art can recognize shastar vidiya as a deadly art why cannot other sikhs? is their hatred for one man so strong that they cannot comprehend how good this martial art of our ancestors is?.


    zulu warrior
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420

    Part 1

    Harvinder -

    Yes, I do disagree - it shouldn't be that surprising - there are very few things on which all people agree completely.

    I think you misunderstood what I wrote in my earlier post, or perhaps my views were not presented as clearly. I'll take another stab at it, and respond to some of what you've written.

    Re the terminology, the words gatka and shastar-vidya are often used interchangeably by many.

    Re gatka, there will be those who swing their swords around 'aimlessly' and those who do not.

    No, you did not mention Muay Thai, but you did completely miss the point that was being made. Please re-read, and the context of my example should be clear, and the reason it was provided. Essentially, as mentioned above, and in the earlier post, not all gatka/shastarvidya instructors are the same, and not all gatka is relegated to the realm of show and nothing else.

    Have you trained with Baba Nihal Singh ji or seen him train? I seriously doubt it. As such, it is more than a little ridiculous to be making assumptions about what he does or doesn't know, without any actual knowledge of the same.

    Moreover, who is the arbiter regarding what are 'low-level forms', in-effectual gatka, and proper shastarvidya? Is it your school, its instructor and its students? Are you the only ones to judge what is genuine and what is not? Is your school truly the only one in the entire world which teaches the true, genuine martial art of the Sikhs? Is there no one else? No one at all?

    Maybe the answer is yes, and your school is the ONLY place for genuine instruction, and EVERYONE else is a fake, or teaches ineffectual, garbage techniques - I don't know for sure.

    However, I've been involved in martial arts for a big chunk of my life, and like others who've been around for a while, and been around the block a few times, we've seen such claims before. I'm sure many on this forum can recall some school claiming to be the only one teaching the true, most genuinest, awesomest form of Super-Ninjitsu, or some instructor claiming to be the only one teaching the lost but most dangerous art of "Shaolin Unicorn-Style" kung-fu.

    I mean no offense, but take it how you will: I understand what you're selling, but I ain't buying

    ....






    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    greetings.

    'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'

    disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
    I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy?

    you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.

    this is my point im making gatka is just show art in GATKA what do you get taught? a simple footwork which wont work in the battlefield context I did not mention anything about muay thai but im glad you brough this up. gatka teachers are now incorporating other martial arts into their gatka system why ? because gatka is not a martial art it cannot hold against other forms. for example lets say I am going to war I practise gatka...i have a tulwar katar a shield the main weapons of gatkabaj, im hitting the enemy's shield with my sword my sword would get blunt right? it could break most likely...i use my katar the same way, same thing happens, do you honestly believe the singhs had no unarmed combat system?!?!


    alright since you brought that up i suggest you go to the nihang chaunis and tell me who teaches the vidiya? no one? because they dont know it!!!! a few babeh know some low forms but thats about it. its laughable? well provide me your evidence on who teaches it? ill love to go to dal panth and learn from a Nihang there but truth is no one knows the FULL art. there have been word about so called 25 teachers in budha dal but why hasnt anyone given their names? or any information about them? there is a Baba gyana singh who does teach shastar vidiya BUT Niddar Singh has met him and he only knows some basic techniques. if there are babeh who do know the vidiya and have kept it gupt i suggest they should come out and teach...

    solid guys? like who give me names like I said....
    so you have learned shastar vidiya from akali baba nihal singh? I havent come across him knowing the vidiya, im sure he knows gatka, or maybe some low forms of shastar vidiya but that mahapursh sadly does not know the full vidiya.

    no offence to you but seeing as you can state all of this stuff why not come to the Akara seeing as if gatka and shastar vidiya are the same thing to you I think its best if you come and see the art rather then giving a baseless argument on how Niddar Singh Nihang isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya, hes been to punjab how many times? countless number of times he hasnt come across a single Nihang who knows the full art. If you think hes lying about him being the last gurdev do your research find a Nihang who knows the full art, challenge niddar about it why he is lying about it then.

    until you give me evidence of teachers of the vidiya currently, your statement niddar singh isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya is 'wack'

    2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420

    Part 2

    ...

    Furthermore, it does not bother me that Niddar Singh calls himself the 'last remaining master'. Niddar Singh could call himself the 'last remaining legend', or the 'last remaining king of the world' - I could care less. As long as the instruction is good and I'm learning, titles are irrelevant in my eyes.

    (On that note, Niddar Singh does seem to be a good instructor, and if I'm ever in England, I'd love to drop in for a few classes. I'm sure there are many things I could learn from him.)

    But out of curiousity, who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Has this been acknowledged and bestowed upon him by any of the Sikh Takhats (Seats of Authority)? Has this been acknowledged by those in the Taruna Dal or the Buddha Dal? Has this been acknowledged and accepted by any of the large, representative Sikh bodies, either in India or in the diaspora?

    Or, is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself?

    I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious.

    ...



    Regarding names of other guys, I don't have a slew of them to hand out - my exposure has been pretty localized. Most of the gatka I've seen has been showy, and to my eye, ineffectual so I've avoided such classes; however, there have been a few excellent experiences.

    The first would be Baba Nihal Singh ji. I learned from him for a short period of time - a week perhaps. It would be incorrect to say I learned swordsmanship from him, though I wish I could.The second is a guy named Mahavir Singh, who I trained with 8 or so years ago.


    regards,
    Perpinder Singh


    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    greetings.

    'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'

    disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
    I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy?

    you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.

    this is my point im making gatka is just show art in GATKA what do you get taught? a simple footwork which wont work in the battlefield context I did not mention anything about muay thai but im glad you brough this up. gatka teachers are now incorporating other martial arts into their gatka system why ? because gatka is not a martial art it cannot hold against other forms. for example lets say I am going to war I practise gatka...i have a tulwar katar a shield the main weapons of gatkabaj, im hitting the enemy's shield with my sword my sword would get blunt right? it could break most likely...i use my katar the same way, same thing happens, do you honestly believe the singhs had no unarmed combat system?!?!


    alright since you brought that up i suggest you go to the nihang chaunis and tell me who teaches the vidiya? no one? because they dont know it!!!! a few babeh know some low forms but thats about it. its laughable? well provide me your evidence on who teaches it? ill love to go to dal panth and learn from a Nihang there but truth is no one knows the FULL art. there have been word about so called 25 teachers in budha dal but why hasnt anyone given their names? or any information about them? there is a Baba gyana singh who does teach shastar vidiya BUT Niddar Singh has met him and he only knows some basic techniques. if there are babeh who do know the vidiya and have kept it gupt i suggest they should come out and teach...

    solid guys? like who give me names like I said....
    so you have learned shastar vidiya from akali baba nihal singh? I havent come across him knowing the vidiya, im sure he knows gatka, or maybe some low forms of shastar vidiya but that mahapursh sadly does not know the full vidiya.

    no offence to you but seeing as you can state all of this stuff why not come to the Akara seeing as if gatka and shastar vidiya are the same thing to you I think its best if you come and see the art rather then giving a baseless argument on how Niddar Singh Nihang isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya, hes been to punjab how many times? countless number of times he hasnt come across a single Nihang who knows the full art. If you think hes lying about him being the last gurdev do your research find a Nihang who knows the full art, challenge niddar about it why he is lying about it then.

    until you give me evidence of teachers of the vidiya currently, your statement niddar singh isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya is 'wack'

    2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420
    Hello Emanuel,

    Thanks for your post - you are correct, it was the Multani case in Montreal.


    I think you'll find the terms gatka and shastarvidya are used interchangeably by many, but gatka is definitely the more common term.

    There are probably a number of places that teach some form of gatka/shastar-vidya in or around Toronto, and you should definitely go and check some of these places out if you're interested in the art.

    Of course, go in with a critical eye and hard questions! As with other martial arts, there are going to be those putting forward a weak product, and others who are not. I wouldn't necessarily be put off if you see some stick twirling etc. but do ask why and see what else is offered.

    I don't know if the following place is good or not, but it seems to offer a variety of martial arts and might be worth checking out: http://www.gatka.ca/Gatka/Academy.html

    Re the Sikh religion having the purpose of being a military order/vocation, I understand where you are coming from with that statement, and it is widely held thought about Sikhs and Sikhism. However, it is incorrect.

    While the soldier aspect is important to a Sikh, so is that of being a saint; the two go hand-in-hand. The martial race theory pushed by the Brits, while it does my heart proud as a Sikh , was more of a tool used by the Raj. They said the same of the Ghurkas and the Highland Scots, and used them in their wars, in much the same manner.

    Certainly, while much of Sikh history is colored by war and armed struggle, it would be incorrect to say Sikhism's purpose revolves around soldiering or being a military order.

    Sikhism was a distinct movement, seperate and different than the two prevailing religious traditions: Islam and Hinduism. The Mughals saw the Sikhs as a threat to their empire, and the Hindu high-castes saw the Sikhs as a threat to their religious beliefs, traditions, and power over the lower-castes (Sikhism did away with the caste system).

    At times, this didn't leave Sikhs with very many options but the sword

    I'll stop there before I forget myself and start expounding on Sikh history and theology - especially since I understand religion, politics and guns are subjects best kept off of the forum - ha!

    Please feel free to send me a PM if there is anything of particular interest to you. Google is great for answers but miserable at fostering good, engaging discussion

    regards,
    Perpinder





    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel Nicolescu View Post
    Hello Perpinder,

    We are in complete agreement. I'd forgotten the details about the case, montreal, not Toronto, but I'm familiar with the rest of the debate and the question of reasonable accomodation.

    I would very much like to get into this gatka/shastar vidiya discussion but my knowledge is far too limited. All I can say is that I've been surprised to find no mention of Shastar Vidiya here in Toronto, despite a sizable Sikh community.

    Gatka, in contrast, has gotten relatively popular. I've also found it showy and it seems to me that the blade on shield hitting is at best intended to teach students to catch the weapon on their dhal and not risk injury through paries. A "spinning" object hurts, be it stick or tulwar.

    The use of Gatka to keep alive some remnants of a tradition is commendable IMO, especially when the purpose of the Sikh religion as a military order/vocation is no longer as relevant around the world as it once was, or may be still, in India. In most western cultures and places the wear of weapons is forbidden and socially unacceptable. The opportunity to use swords and daggers, and therefore the focus on their teaching, are consequently limited.

    That said, I would like to see more of Shastar Vidiya here is Toronto. It is an impressive art, and, as a collector of Indian arms, I do appreciate the teaching of their use being kept alive.

    Cheers,
    Emanuel

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Perpinder Singh View Post
    ...



    But out of curiousity, who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Has this been acknowledged and bestowed upon him by any of the Sikh Takhats (Seats of Authority)? Has this been acknowledged by those in the Taruna Dal or the Buddha Dal? Has this been acknowledged and accepted by any of the large, representative Sikh bodies, either in India or in the diaspora?

    Or, is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself?

    Sachkhand vasi Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96crore gave him agiya when baba ji was budda dal jathedar
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    Sachkhand vasi Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96crore gave him agiya when baba ji was budda dal jathedar
    Is there any evidence corroborating this? Letter, certificate, statement, anything at all?

    Some more questions:

    1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. Also if you look at his website it says he taught a man called Pirthi Bedi, and Mr Bedi then went on to win a gatka competition. Mr Bedi was well known around Southall etc. as a gatka man.

    2) Why is it OK for Europeans to reconstruct a historical martial art, but it's seen as bad when Sikhs do it? It seems pretty obvious that Niddar Singh has reconstructed a historical martial art going by some written sources and by bits and pieces he heard here and there from various people. To my mind, there's nothing wrong with that. A reconstructed martial art can be a good martial art. But Sikhs don't see it like that? It seems it has to be presented as a living tradition that has always been there, which is a bit sad and dishonest. How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?

    3) Given all the changes in the history of this art as per the website over the years, is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?

  23. #23
    first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
    pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
    niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu.


    come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.


    if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ?

    if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right??? well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.


    if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!

    just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.

    but I will use this

    'To show off in front of a true Sikh is not right. I will tell you this: always speak truth to a Sikh. Always conceal your self, "He who attains it hides it", [translation of a quote from Adi Guru Durbar]. Just leave it at this. Now, I have explained one word to you will you remember it? "He who attains it hides it," we have attained this [Chatka Gatka] but have it concealed. It is not 'Jahir' [revealed]. If it is revealed then it will be lost.'
    ('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)


    fateh


    Quote Originally Posted by Nav Ghosh View Post
    Is there any evidence corroborating this? Letter, certificate, statement, anything at all?

    Some more questions:

    1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. Also if you look at his website it says he taught a man called Pirthi Bedi, and Mr Bedi then went on to win a gatka competition. Mr Bedi was well known around Southall etc. as a gatka man.

    2) Why is it OK for Europeans to reconstruct a historical martial art, but it's seen as bad when Sikhs do it? It seems pretty obvious that Niddar Singh has reconstructed a historical martial art going by some written sources and by bits and pieces he heard here and there from various people. To my mind, there's nothing wrong with that. A reconstructed martial art can be a good martial art. But Sikhs don't see it like that? It seems it has to be presented as a living tradition that has always been there, which is a bit sad and dishonest. How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?

    3) Given all the changes in the history of this art as per the website over the years, is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?
    Last edited by harvinder singh; 12-15-2009 at 07:47 PM.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420

    Follow-up

    Harvinder Singh,

    I didn't understand much of what you wrote below in response to Nav, but it seems as if you and Nav have some personal history, and I have no interest in getting involved.

    However, please refrain from swearing/vulgar language ("fudhu"), and personal attacks ("fanatics" etc.), or the administrators will remove you from this forum.

    This forum has been a place of polite, if sometimes vigourous, debate and discussion, and I wish to see it remain that way. I personally have no patience for the type of language you have used and am pretty sure the admins will feel the same way.

    Any argument you wish to make, can be made without using inappropriate language or by personally attacking other forumites.

    I respect that you have many things to share with the forum, and most likely have relevant information to put forward regarding the questions asked, and look forward to what you have to say...but lets carry on this discussion like gentlemen. Thank you.

    regards,
    Perpinder



    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
    pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
    niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu.


    come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.


    if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ?

    if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right??? well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.


    if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!

    just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.

    but I will use this

    'To show off in front of a true Sikh is not right. I will tell you this: always speak truth to a Sikh. Always conceal your self, "He who attains it hides it", [translation of a quote from Adi Guru Durbar]. Just leave it at this. Now, I have explained one word to you will you remember it? "He who attains it hides it," we have attained this [Chatka Gatka] but have it concealed. It is not 'Jahir' [revealed]. If it is revealed then it will be lost.'
    ('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)


    fateh
    Last edited by Perpinder Singh; 12-16-2009 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Forget this part: Edit was to correct a particularly poorly worded sentence :)

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420

    Answers to questions

    Harvinder,

    I'm hoping you can address a number of questions that have been posed.
    I'm sure I'm not the only one on this forum who is interested in hearing the answers.

    For your convenience, I'll cut and paste or reword the questions in this one post.


    1. You stated Baba Nihal Singh ji did not have the 'vidya'/knowledge. Have you trained with Baba Nihal Singh ji or seen him train?

    2. Who is the arbiter regarding what are 'low-level forms', in-effectual gatka, and proper shastarvidya? Is it your school, its instructor and its students? Are you the ONLY ones who can judge what is genuine and what is not? Is your school truly the ONLY one in the ENTIRE WORLD that teaches the true, genuine martial art of the Sikhs? Is there no one else? No one at all?

    3. Who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself?

    You have stated this title was bestowed upon Niddar Singh by Baba Santa Singh ji. Can you substantiate this?

    One would imagine, that with a massively important matter like this - declaring someone the 'last remaining master' - there would be a written statement or video recording or something...

    Without some form of substantiation, what is keeping a nobody like me from saying Baba Santa Singh ji declared me the 'last remaining master'?

    I hope you can appreciate why your answer is not satisfactory. Any substantiation/evidence you can provide would be very helpful. Thank you.

    regards,
    Perpinder Singh

    ps. Please also answer Nav's questions:


    1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. (Me:Please also answer why he changed this?)


    2) How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?


    3) Is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?









    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
    pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
    niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu.


    come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.


    if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ?

    if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right??? well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.


    if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!

    just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.

    but I will use this

    'To show off in front of a true Sikh is not right. I will tell you this: always speak truth to a Sikh. Always conceal your self, "He who attains it hides it", [translation of a quote from Adi Guru Durbar]. Just leave it at this. Now, I have explained one word to you will you remember it? "He who attains it hides it," we have attained this [Chatka Gatka] but have it concealed. It is not 'Jahir' [revealed]. If it is revealed then it will be lost.'
    ('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)


    fateh

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •