Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 43 of 43

Thread: indian martial arts - shastar vidiya

  1. #26
    Please maintain civil discourse. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. This is an English language forum, so please use non-English words as they pertain to the topic of the forum (swords ). It is difficult to moderate a language one does not speak or understand. It would be a shame to have to lock this unique and educational thread.

    Thank you,
    Jonathan
    Last edited by J.G. Hopkins; 12-16-2009 at 06:07 AM.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it?
    The problem is that on the 2000/2001 website, it only mentioned 'chatka gatka'. Afterwards this seems to have undergone numerous revisions and additions, and it now says 'Sanatan Hindu-Sikh Darbara Singh Shiv Shastarvidiya Akhara' or something like that.

    pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
    I knew Pirthi. He learned nothing but gatka in the UK. He did not go to Birmingham to learn shastarvidiya but went to India and learned it there. What I'm suggesting is that this is exactly the same pattern as Niddar Singh. Niddar Singh can't be the last living master of an art he learned from someone or some people in India, unless he has reconstructed it from fragments and come up with his own art.

    niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras,
    Actually there is. But that's beside the point. I asked whether there is a document proving that Santa Singh gave agaiya to Niddar Singh, or proving any part of the alleged lineage of Niddar Singh's art. Please answer this.

    nav your a fudhu.
    I have no idea who you are. All I know is you have come here, invited people to come and fight your teacher, and said you are ready to answer questions. We shall ignore the fact that you aren't actually a nihang and yet have given yourself that title on this forum. When questions are put your way however, you have no answers but foul-mouthed insults by way of response. Is the student a reflection of the teacher I wonder? Why is it that one does not encounter this attitude when dealing with traditional arts with documented lineage such as Japanese koryu?

    come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.
    I didn't say he made it all up himself. Go back and read my post. I'm saying he took bits and pieces from here and there and sewed them together to create his own style, and I have no problem with that but apparently you Sikhs do have a problem with it.

    if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is,
    Again, Chris Crudelli's opinion is more about promoting the martial arts in general than exposing flaws in history. In one of his programs I saw he was equally impressed with an octogenarian woman in China who is still lactating because of her alleged supernatural powers. Did he ask Niddar Singh for some proof of the lineage of his art? Of course not. I am asking here. If there is NO evidence supporting the alleged lineage of this art, then just say so.

    why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ?
    Fanatic what? You're obviously mistaking me for someone else. I have no fundamental beliefs in the supernatural, which is why I don't have a problem with someone reconstructing a martial art.

    if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right???
    I think it's most likely that Niddar Singh learned a few techniques from some people in India. If you look at the tiger, pig, snake style fighting forms, these same animals are a subset of a southern kalaripayat martial art.

    well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.
    Guru Gobind Singh was not completely original. He, like the early Sikhs, picked up and used what was there, whether it was Mughal, Persian or Rajput or (later) European arms and armour, plus tactics and martial arts. I don't think this art has anything to do with a Sikh Guru as there is no evidence for this at all.

    if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!
    That's very amusing. Now then, I ask you once more, where is the evidence for this alleged 'lineage'? There should be some historical documents if what you say is true.

    just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.
    No, you're mistaking me for someone else. I have no issues with Niddar Singh, I have met him and think he's personable. But that doesn't take away from my need for evidence. I don't believe these grandiose unsubstantiated claims that are unsupported by even a scrap of paper.

    ('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)

    fateh
    Interesting you mention a 'gupti' (secret or hidden object) because at first Niddar Singh mentioned he was taught by a 'gupti' nihang warrior, and later he changed this to Baba Mohinder Singh, who apparently was the opposite of a gupti as he wore a char-ayna and wandered around India looking for akharas. How do you account for this? An overactive imagination, do you think?

  3. #28
    Prithi Bedi was originally a Gatka ustad. he came to Niddar Singh Nihang when he learnt of Shastar Vidiya, here he studied for a certain long amount of time. he then asked Niddar Singh Nihang if he would give him premission to ener the Gatka tournament (Yudh right) with his knowledge of Shastar Vidiya.
    Gurdev Ji gave permission but said that he must fight as per Shastar Vidiya, not Gatka. with this knowledge (and those that witnessed the tournament can back this up) Prithi Bedi won with his "unorthodox gatka techniques".

    oral tradition !!!!!!!!!!!!! well most of the sikh history sakhis are oral tradition maybe they are all lies.

    I couldnt give a crap about your questions just proves to me how sikhs like you will do anything to disregard the vidiya, just because you hate the guy, im a sikh? id rather be rather than be in a panth with guys like you, woudlnt suprise me if your one of the southall taksali boys.
    all these wonderful sakhis we hear wernt all written down correct ? maybe the one such as panja shaib thats all a lie maybe the countless jungs in the 18th C were lies because not all were written down.


    seeing as you met him why didnt you ask him about the lineage ???

    I can say what I want to say ain't nothin to it gangsta rap made me do it
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  4. #29
    a site, the guys who run the website arent niddars biggest fans...

    http://www.nihangsingh.org/Guru%20Nanak%20Dev%20Ji.html

    This divine union can be though o the almighty witnessing its own physical self in the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. In this divine union between sargun (with form) and nargun (formless) of the supreme divinity, a dialogue took place which is known as the Mulmantr or root mantra for the Sikhs which is the openings stanza of the Adi Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Practitioners of the Nihang Singh martial art 'Shastarvidiya' (science of weapons) believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji also returned from their divine union having attained the knowledge of Shastarvidiya, which the passed on to Baba Budha Ji.



    " During their divine union Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji acquired various sciences, arts and forms of knowledge. Amongst these was Shastarvidiya which he blessed to Baba Budha Ji to preserve until the coming of the sixth Guru." (Jathedar Nihang Baba Labh Singh, Audio recording, December 2008)


    I don't think this art has anything to do with a Sikh Guru as there is no evidence for this at all.

    so your saying the vidiya doesnt have anything to do with the gurus? when a Jathedar such as Akali Nihang Baba Labh Singh Ji (Mukh Sevadar Sri Darbar Zaffarnama Sahib)

    akali labh singh is a Mahakal, your questioning a mahakal singh? the very form of akaalpurakh?

    I suggest we leave our political issues away from this website, we are making us 'Sikhs' look like fudhus...
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  5. #30
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420

    Response please

    Harvinder,

    Could you please answer the questions I asked in my last post? Thank you.

    regards,
    Perpinder

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Perpinder Singh View Post
    Harvinder,

    Could you please answer the questions I asked in my last post? Thank you.

    regards,
    Perpinder

    What is false I will call false, even though people try to silence me
    I do not care what people think, I will speak the truth from my mouth
    (Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib)
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    Prithi Bedi was originally a Gatka ustad. he came to Niddar Singh Nihang when he learnt of Shastar Vidiya, here he studied for a certain long amount of time. he then asked Niddar Singh Nihang if he would give him premission to ener the Gatka tournament (Yudh right) with his knowledge of Shastar Vidiya.
    Gurdev Ji gave permission but said that he must fight as per Shastar Vidiya, not Gatka. with this knowledge (and those that witnessed the tournament can back this up) Prithi Bedi won with his "unorthodox gatka techniques".
    According to the obituary of Pirthi Bedi written with the approval of his father, Mr Bedi did indeed go to India to learn shastar vidiya. I accept that after his return, he associated with Niddar Singh and trained with him. I imagine they had a lot in common, having gone to India to learn shastarvidiya from persons whose identity is already a matter of myth/legend.

    oral tradition !!!!!!!!!!!!! well most of the sikh history sakhis are oral tradition maybe they are all lies.
    Oral tradition is extremely unreliable if unsupported by contemporary evidence. As an Indian myself, I admit that Indians tend to exaggerate stories over time, beginning with hyperbole, and then kings become gods, generals become mythological bigger-than-life characters etc. If you look at the given 'lineage' of this art as supplied by Niddar Singh, again the website has undergone numerous revisions. Originally, it supplied a 'lineage' starting with Ram Chander (currently worshipped as a god in the modern Hindu pantheon) and ended with Niddar Singh. Now the lineage chart is gone, and it states only that Baba Buddha taught the Sikh Guru Hargobind. Now, where does the mythology end and fact begin, in this lineage? I take it all with a huge fistful of salt until I see some proof, at which point I may revise my opinion.

    By the way, why did the site circa 2004 state that Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and all the rest of the Sikh gurus were shastardhari and knew shastarvidiya, while now it says the 9th Guru was the first Guru to be 'taught' shastarvidiya by Baba Buddha?

    I also recall that the site at that time stated Niddar Singh was 'Jathedar of Budha Dal UK', a very bold claim that turned out to be demonstrably false and was eventually retracted.

    I couldnt give a crap about your questions just proves to me how sikhs like you will do anything to disregard the vidiya, just because you hate the guy,
    I don't hate anyone. I'm just asking for evidence. If new evidence comes to light, I will reconsider my position but until then I doubt this story.

    all these wonderful sakhis we hear wernt all written down correct ? maybe the one such as panja shaib thats all a lie maybe the countless jungs in the 18th C were lies because not all were written down.
    Not getting into a religious debate as that would be going off-topic, but yes there were numerous invented sakhis including one that even had Guru Nanak 'predict' the coming of British rule and appear to endorse it!

    seeing as you met him why didnt you ask him about the lineage ???
    I've got no good answer for this. I should have asked about it but it just wasn't on my mind at the time. I'm not saying he has nothing worthwhile to teach, just that I don't believe his politically-correct proclamations or assertions, all of which seem to hold the non-Sikh western opinion as some sort of holy Grail that must be upheld whatever the cost, even if that cost is countless Platonisms. In the 'holy' cause of this public relations exercise, too many inconsistencies and drastic revisions have taken place for me to find it credible.
    Last edited by Nav Ghosh; 12-17-2009 at 10:28 AM.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    10,682
    I would like to ask everyone to follow the forum rules and follow the discussion accordingly.

    Kind regards
    Manouchehr

  9. #34
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    What is false I will call false, even though people try to silence me
    I do not care what people think, I will speak the truth from my mouth
    (Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib)

    I'm glad to hear that Harvinder. Unfortunately, you still have not answered the questions.

    You chose to make some very strong statements, and have simply been asked to clarify your position or substantiate your statements. Your failure or unwillingness to do so, raises doubt about the validity of your statements.

    I hate to browbeat on this matter, so I will not be asking you to address the questions again.

  10. #35
    1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this.


    2) How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?


    3) Is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?



    1) chatka gatka is the informal term for shastar vidiya. from here, the name gatka was given when the exhibition "martial art" was produced. this is because ALL high level techniques (chatka) were removed. The name was changed as many people then started beleiving that shastar vidiya and gatka were the same, the chatka gatka was given tis original name – Shastar Vidiya. do you know what gurdev of this akara said to gatka practitioners if what you do is gatka what I do is chatka gatka!



    2) the theory of Niddar Singh Nihang reconstructing Shastar Vidiya is just a myth. this has come about due to his infamous self that people do not like. so to put him down they go for what he stands for - Shastar Vidiya. people spread lies about it and then as the lies are told so many times, they seem like being of truthful origin. There are others in India who know of and who have studied/practised Shastar Vidiya. but only to a certain extent. These include the late Singh Sahib Sachkhand Vasi Akaali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore Jathedar of Buddha Dal, and Zinda Shaheed Akaali Nihang Baba Nihaal Singh Ji Jathedar shaheeda misil. There are those who also have knowledge of the background of Shastar Vidiya; Baba Balbir Singh (some dont agree with him, I dont) . Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Damdami Taksaal also knew of and spoke about Shastar Vidiya. Baba Giaan Singh (Nirmala) also wrote much about Shastar Vidiya in his various books, as he had learnt Shastar Vidiya himself, being around the time of Akali Nihang Baba Sawan Singh 'Bangroo', Akali Nihang Baba Mangal Singh Ji and possibly Akali Nihang Baba Giana Singh aka 'Rabb Ji', all three respectful Gurdevs of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara. when the british invaded india, they issued a shoot to kill order for Nihang Singhs. therefore many died. Shastar Vidiya is a martial art which is solely for killing, so it was kept a secret. This can be seen with Shaolin Kung (Gung) Fu. this martial art which is widely known and respected (as Shastar Vidiya was in India before the invasion of the British) is now dying out. so they have resorted in creating a demo "martial art" to attract people to Shaolin Kung Fu. but this martial art, the greatest in China is dying out. when there is just one Grandmaster left teaching, people will question "how can this one person be the last remaining teacher of kung fu, hes a fake!". Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, the previous Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara knew and understood the way that the sikhs of india felt towards Shastar Vidiya. with the introduction of machine guns, armour peircing rounds and grenades, who needs martial arts? so it was his order to send the martial art to the West, back to where Niddar Singh Nihang came from. and if you look from the outside for a moment please...that was the best decision to make. here in the UK many people support Shastar Vidiya. you can go onto any sikh forum and you will see people fighting in support of Shastar Vidiya because we understand that if Niddar Singh Nihang is to stop teaching, this martial art, the final peice of our heritage will die along with it. so how can we live with ourselves if we know that without bothering to go and learn, and by slandering the martial art itslf, we have contributed to the loss of our Guru's Vidiya. in india there are no group of people trying to bring back shastar vidiya. nobody cares. to them gatka is what should be learned. but it is all showmanship with fancy looking spins and jumps.A quote from Pracheen Panth Prakash “Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and preserve Shastar Vidiya any way you can.” This written by Rattan Singh Bhangu, and in Pracheen Panth Prakash there are many references to Shastar Vidiya and direct descriptions of high level techniques. It is a well known fact within the both Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal, that Niddar Singh Nihang is the only one who has complete knowledge of Shastar Vidiya, as he sometimes teaches when he goes to india. Baba Nihaal Singh Ji, who knew Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh ji, had actually asked Niddar Singh Nihang to come and teach Shastar Vidiya at Harian-Vela. But someone here will undoubtedly ask for proof of this.



    3) there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji stating that Baba Mohinder Singh Ji would follow as the next Gurdev of the akhara. and subsequently there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, stating that Niddar Singh Nihang is the next Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara. Also in Raqba there is a Gurdev called Baba Gyana singh who is around 90+ years old(a lot of controversy about this baba - many people have spread lies about him to try and prove niddar singh is wrong) who teaches the lower forms of Shastar Vidiya, he also has a lineage to Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji “Giaana Rabb”, he has also met niddar singh and niddar singh said this baba only knows some of the low pentras and forms not much sadly ,and is witness to the lineage of the Bhujangi Shastar Vidiya Akhara leading to Niddar Singh Nihang from the time of Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    1) chatka gatka is the informal term for shastar vidiya.
    Source?

    Shastarvidiya as the martial art taught by Niddar Singh has gone through numerous name changes as per the website, and there doesn't seem to be any historical justification for any of them unless I'm missing something? Why did he just mention 'chatka gatka' in the first version of the website and keep all its other names 'Baba Darbara Singh', 'kshatriya', 'Hindu-Sikh', 'Suryavanshi', etc. apparently secret?

    Is there any historical evidence at all for:

    1) The claim that shastarvidiya refers to a specific and secret martial art as opposed to being the Sanskrit/Hindu word for 'knowledge of weapons' as used in the Vedas?
    2) The claim that there is or was a martial art called 'chatka gatka'?

    from here, the name gatka was given when the exhibition "martial art" was produced. this is because ALL high level techniques (chatka) were removed.
    So what you're saying is, malicious persons (whether coerced by the British Raj or for some other reasons) deliberately let a worthwhile traditional martial art die a natural death, and the result is exhibition gatka.
    I'm sorry but I find this claim simply ridiculous as exhibition gatka is itself something very new and restricted to the Sikhs. In the 1930s/40s my Hindu grandmother learned gatka at school, where it was just an ordinary singlesticks fencing game native to India. This was commonplace, like wrestling used to be.

    The name was changed as many people then started beleiving that shastar vidiya and gatka were the same, the chatka gatka was given tis original name – Shastar Vidiya. do you know what gurdev of this akara said to gatka practitioners if what you do is gatka what I do is chatka gatka!
    Personally I think I have a fair idea of what the teacher has been saying. What I'm short of is historical evidence - if any exist - for these claims. If you can help fill the gap I would be obliged.

    2) the theory of Niddar Singh Nihang reconstructing Shastar Vidiya is just a myth.
    Now you're just doing a classic reveral. Let's talk about historical evidence for the art as taught by Niddar Singh. I have asked for proof that he was given permission to teach his art on behalf of the Budha Dal, or any document proving any part of the lineage/myth of this art.

    On the subject of myths, perhaps you can tell us whether the term 'nihang' occurs in pre-18th century Sikh literature. Why is it supposed to refer to the present-day pretenders to that title, namely the Budha Dal and Taruna Dal? Can you answer this without reference to hearsay and ideology? I am looking for historical evidence for these modern day myths:

    1) That the term 'nihangs' was supposed to refer exclusively to Sikhs - and a very small group of Sikhs that has enjoyed a revival since the 1940s - and not to Hindu or Muslim warriors;
    2) That the term 'shastarvidiya' refers to a specific set of martial art moves as opposed to its clear translation 'knowledge of weapons' for example knowledge of how to make a nuclear bomb;
    3) That the given history of shastarvidiya (Baba Buddha etc.) is not a modern reconstruction and a myt

    this has come about due to his infamous self that people do not like. so to put him down they go for what he stands for - Shastar Vidiya.
    How many times have I addressed this? When someone asks for evidence substantiating some very interesting claims, it's not because they have personal issues with the claimant.
    Also, does he stand for Shastar Vidiya or for modern Sikhism? Surely the real agenda here is the polity and standing of Sikh political groups, and the way you Sikhs do this is by literally excommunicating anyone who questions the status quo. For instance how many people wrote the Dasam Granth or Sarbloh Granth? If a Sikh were to suggest it was an 18th century 'team effort' he would be instantly excommunicated. And yet, the earliest reference to nihangs in Sikh religious texts is the Dasam Granth.

    people spread lies about it and then as the lies are told so many times,
    Exactly why I don't believe anything without evidence. I'm still waiting for that evidence for the lineage of Niddar Singh's martial art.

    These include the late Singh Sahib Sachkhand Vasi Akaali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore Jathedar of Buddha Dal, and Zinda Shaheed Akaali Nihang Baba Nihaal Singh Ji Jathedar shaheeda misil. There are those who also have knowledge of the background of Shastar Vidiya; Baba Balbir Singh (some dont agree with him, I dont) . Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Damdami Taksaal also knew of and spoke about Shastar Vidiya. Baba Giaan Singh (Nirmala) also wrote much about Shastar Vidiya in his various books, as he had learnt Shastar Vidiya himself, being around the time of Akali Nihang Baba Sawan Singh 'Bangroo', Akali Nihang Baba Mangal Singh Ji and possibly Akali Nihang Baba Giana Singh aka 'Rabb Ji', all three respectful Gurdevs of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara. when the british invaded india, they issued a shoot to kill order for Nihang Singhs. therefore many died. Shastar Vidiya is a martial art which is solely for killing, so it was kept a secret.
    Like Ninjutsu, right? And for the first time, and only in 21st century Birmingham, this secret too-deadly-for-school martial art is 'back'? Evidence, evidence, evidence. Where is it?

    This can be seen with Shaolin Kung (Gung) Fu. this martial art which is widely known and respected (as Shastar Vidiya was in India before the invasion of the British) is now dying out. so they have resorted in creating a demo "martial art" to attract people to Shaolin Kung Fu.
    Bad example. Shaolin Kung Fu is very common. The Chinese promote wushu as a pure exhibition art but keep Shaolin kung fu separate. They don't hide the fact they created wushu in modern times as a showman art. Perhaps a better example here would be Ninjutsu?

    but this martial art, the greatest in China is dying out. when there is just one Grandmaster left teaching, people will question "how can this one person be the last remaining teacher of kung fu, hes a fake!".
    Big surprise when people ask for evidence?

    Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, the previous Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara knew and understood the way that the sikhs of india felt towards Shastar Vidiya.
    Evidence? How do you know he was the 'previous gurdev'? Where is the certificate or letter or statement? Same for 'Baba' Santa Singh: where is the proof he gave agaiya to Niddar Singh to teach shastarvidiya? People can say all kinds of things and attribute words to the dead easily. Remember both Mohinder Singh and Santa Singh were literate men in a literate society living in late 20th century India. There is documentary evidence for the notables in much earlier Sikh history such as 'Banda Bahadur'. Why no evidence supporting Niddar Singh's claims of authority from these 2 dead masters living in the modern period?

    with the introduction of machine guns, armour peircing rounds and grenades, who needs martial arts? so it was his order to send the martial art to the West, back to where Niddar Singh Nihang came from. and if you look from the outside for a moment please...that was the best decision to make. here in the UK many people support Shastar Vidiya. you can go onto any sikh forum and you will see people fighting in support of Shastar Vidiya because we understand that if Niddar Singh Nihang is to stop teaching, this martial art, the final peice of our heritage will die along with it. so how can we live with ourselves if we know that without bothering to go and learn,
    Nobody says don't learn from so-and-so.

    and by slandering the martial art itslf,
    Here's what I suggest you consistently fail to understand. When someone asks you for proof, this is not slander. You've got to remember others support your right to believe anything you want even if they think it's nonsense and you're fooling yourself, but if those same people ask for evidence it's not 'slander' it's just common sense and avoiding prejudice.

    we have contributed to the loss of our Guru's Vidiya.
    Who's 'we'? There's no 'we' anywhere, neither should there be. There are loads of vested interests and ambitious people, and most are out for themselves. Ask the difficult questions and face the uncomfortable truths.

    in india there are no group of people trying to bring back shastar vidiya.
    The Indian government supports cultural events including Sikh gatka (the singlesticks traditional sport), kalaripayat, wrestling and other indigenous martial arts. They support touring groups etc.

    Pracheen Panth Prakash “Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and preserve Shastar Vidiya any way you can.”
    Translate it fully into English not by halves. 'Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and maintain the knowledge of weapons any way you can'. By leaving Shastar Vidiya untranslated, you're opening the way for any Tom Dick and Harry to tell you about their super-duper legendarily illiterate martial art. By using the word illiterate here, I am referring to the complete and conspicuous absence of any supporting evidence for Niddar Singh's 'history' and martial art.

    This written by Rattan Singh Bhangu, and in Pracheen Panth Prakash there are many references to Shastar Vidiya and direct descriptions of high level techniques. It is a well known fact within the both Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal, that Niddar Singh Nihang is the only one who has complete knowledge of Shastar Vidiya, as he sometimes teaches when he goes to india.
    The opinion of some modern people who have joined the modern organisations calling themselves 'Buddha Dal' and 'Taruna Dal' is of no interest. If they say they 'know' something, we want to know how they know it. However these people just keep saying 'oral tradition' whenever you ask for evidence. I am not inclined to take their word for anything.

    Baba Nihaal Singh Ji, who knew Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh ji, had actually asked Niddar Singh Nihang to come and teach Shastar Vidiya at Harian-Vela. But someone here will undoubtedly ask for proof of this.
    No, I'm just interested in proof of where his martial art comes from. Who taught it to him and who gave him authority, if anyone actually did. If someone else believes his story, that doesn't make it true. Whether it's Nihal Singh, Krishna Godhania or Chris Crudelli. I could find more people who disbelieve, and again that would be worthless. Give us some evidence.

    3) there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji stating that Baba Mohinder Singh Ji would follow as the next Gurdev of the akhara. and subsequently there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, stating that Niddar Singh Nihang is the next Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara.
    Do you remember the last days of 'Baba' Santa Singh very recently? All sorts of 'devoted' true-believer nihangs surrounded him and pressed his thumbprint into various land-transfer documents. If these letters exist as you say (and again, for all we know this could be one of so many things you've heard from nihangs with their oral tradition and all), where can they be inspected for authenticity? Thanks

    Also in Raqba there is a Gurdev called Baba Gyana singh who is around 90+ years old(a lot of controversy about this baba - many people have spread lies about him to try and prove niddar singh is wrong) who teaches the lower forms of Shastar Vidiya, he also has a lineage to Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji “Giaana Rabb”, he has also met niddar singh and niddar singh said this baba only knows some of the low pentras and forms not much sadly ,and is witness to the lineage of the Bhujangi Shastar Vidiya Akhara leading to Niddar Singh Nihang from the time of Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji.
    Oh yes? That's interesting but tell us who told you this, and who told them etc. It's just hearsay until we see some proof or can establish the facts with reference to some evidence.

    Let's go back to the beginning. You provided a link to a site - you said the people behind it don't like Niddar Singh (as if that had anything to do with things) but you endorsed the history it gave. Now that site says Guru Nanak had knowledge of shastarvidiya (which you say refers to a specific martial art but linguists would differ with you on that) which he passed to Baba Buddha to hold in a sort of trust until the 6th Guru came about. Surely you must see that is pure ideological patchwork depending heavily on religious belief, and not history. How old would Baba Buddha had to have been, to teach what he had allegedly been taught by the 1st Guru, to the 6th Guru? 150 years or something?

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Greater Manchester,United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,203
    I seem to recall Niddar Singh making a public apology for many mistakes in his book which enraged many mainstream sikhs...

    Nang Niddar Singh Apology - Hazoor Sahib 2008

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xvqfhkWEy4

    I am punjabi, therefore I understood the conversation in the video. At one point somebody asks him directly to explain certain things from his book, and he keeps silent. Also, his posture and constant fidgeting do not indicate the warrior spirit that the Shaster Vidya website keeps referring to. Why didnt he issue a hadh torrh challenge there and then to those who were challenging his book.

    Also saw another video of his book launch in UK...where he tries to justify why he had to make that public apology....and implies that he was forced to make that apology against his will.

    Also, the website refers to bone-breaking encounters between Sikh Warriors and muslim "kalipa", which refers to the leader of muslims. There can only ever be one khaliph of the entire muslim world at any one time.
    I do not recall any encounters whatsoever between a muslim khaliph and a sikh warrior. Maybe your understanding of a khaliph is different from mine? Please clarify ....
    "If metal can be polished to a mirror-like finish,
    What polishing might the Mirror of the Heart require"

    Rumi

  13. #38
    typical very typical,

    have you read the book? do you know why that happened? i dont think so, they wernt happy about the chapter on the destruction of heritage and how some say baba kulwant singh lacks bir ras.
    many mistakes in the book? ok mr historian you tell me what mistakes that the committe took down ramgarhia bunga ??? they kicked people out of their houses which were built by the puratan singhs to build hotels for the 300 smagham?????

    why didnt he issue a hath thoor challenge ? are you mad, look at the size of those guys do you actually think they would stand a chance against niddar singh? is niddar stupid enough to make a scene at THE biggest event for a sikh in this century? no use your brain

    explain certain things from the book???? no they asked him what rumors they have heard about him.
    I know 3 people who were in that room the issue was about the quotation not about what ever vichaar person opinions ok, I think khalistan is bullshit 90% of sikhs are fudus thats my opinion!!! everyone is entitled to their opinion you dont like it tuff.

    well Akali Nihang Santa Singh did have encounters with muslim warriors, if you dont want to believe it dont, speak to the nihangs close to baba santa singh about it.

    nav you clearly dont want to believe anything your hatred is soo strong you dont want to believe anything chall it happens, I dont have anything else to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by MumtazB View Post
    I seem to recall Niddar Singh making a public apology for many mistakes in his book which enraged many mainstream sikhs...

    Nang Niddar Singh Apology - Hazoor Sahib 2008

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xvqfhkWEy4

    I am punjabi, therefore I understood the conversation in the video. At one point somebody asks him directly to explain certain things from his book, and he keeps silent. Also, his posture and constant fidgeting do not indicate the warrior spirit that the Shaster Vidya website keeps referring to. Why didnt he issue a hadh torrh challenge there and then to those who were challenging his book.

    Also saw another video of his book launch in UK...where he tries to justify why he had to make that public apology....and implies that he was forced to make that apology against his will.

    Also, the website refers to bone-breaking encounters between Sikh Warriors and muslim "kalipa", which refers to the leader of muslims. There can only ever be one khaliph of the entire muslim world at any one time.
    I do not recall any encounters whatsoever between a muslim khaliph and a sikh warrior. Maybe your understanding of a khaliph is different from mine? Please clarify ....
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nav Ghosh View Post
    How old would Baba Buddha had to have been, to teach what he had allegedly been taught by the 1st Guru, to the 6th Guru? 150 years or something?


    wait a second, so you dont believe baba budha ji anointed guru nanak to guru hargobind ??????? because you saying how old must he have been allegedly to me seems like you even doubt he did raj tilak to the gurus!!!!! nice
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  15. #40
    Here is a clip similar to something I saw on TV a short while ago

    http://thepanthicotpreka.blogspot.co...tej-singh.html

    On the site, it says -
    Uptej Singh (Probably the best if not one of the best gatka/shastar vidya artist in the world

    Is there any others claiming this title?
    I have no opinion on this subject either way, just a curious observer.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by S.Hazel View Post
    Here is a clip similar to something I saw on TV a short while ago

    http://thepanthicotpreka.blogspot.co...tej-singh.html

    On the site, it says -
    Uptej Singh (Probably the best if not one of the best gatka/shastar vidya artist in the world

    Is there any others claiming this title?
    I have no opinion on this subject either way, just a curious observer.
    unsure whether cutting bananas and water melons is classed as a martial art

    ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਪਾਹਿ ਨਿਬੇਰੋ ॥
    Anṯar kī gaṯ ṯum hī jānī ṯujẖ hī pāhi nibero.
    Only You know the state of my innermost self; You alone can judge me.


    anyway to nav giving opinions on the effectiveness of yudh vidya you have never seen you cannot comment on the vidiya, maybe you have a personal agenda against niddar which I think you do hence these bombardment of these questions about the linage if you want to SEE the proof go to one of the akaras and ask him yourself.


    anyway enough is enough, we have argued said things etc and we have said some things which shouldnt have been said, katt o katt you think the vidiya is false teek whereas I dont. we shall end on that?

    one more thing there is a dal panth amrit sanchar on sunday in coventry guru hargobind gurdwara, 3 well known akali nihangs will be there''akali nihang tirlok singh'' tarna dal will be heading the sanchar maybe speak to him if you think the vidiya linage from guru nanak to baba buddha then to guru hargobind is false say it to him and see what he shal say.

    I will leave you with one line which I love....

    ਹਾਥੀ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਪਲ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਹੁੰਚਤ ਤਾਹਿ ਚੀਟੀ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਘਾਰ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹੀ ਸੁਨੀਅਤੁ ਹੈਂ ॥੪॥੨੫੬॥

    fateh
    akaal sat sri akaaaal!
    Last edited by harvinder singh; 12-23-2009 at 03:18 PM.
    http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Greater Manchester,United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,203
    .............
    Last edited by MumtazB; 01-01-2010 at 09:23 AM.
    "If metal can be polished to a mirror-like finish,
    What polishing might the Mirror of the Heart require"

    Rumi

  18. #43
    Hello Harvinder Singh,

    maybe you or someone else can help me and tell me in which martial magazine this interview was published (name, year, issue, page)? I need the details to do research for an assignment. Thank you!

    Best regards from Germany

    Alex


    Quote Originally Posted by harvinder singh View Post
    a few years back on a martial arts magazine

    Shastarvidiya - Indian Martial Arts by Krishan Godhania

    As a native of India, I have always had an interest in the vast array of traditional Indian Martial Arts. Locating such martial arts is difficult; teachers in India are highly secretive by nature. This is due to the deadly nature of these battlefield arts; the treasured knowledge is passed only to a select few. Nidar Singh - who has been practising the art of Shastarvidiya for over two decades and is perhaps the senior gutu of this particular art in the UK - shares the background and development of this ancient martial art.

    Krishna Godhania: What is Shastarvidiya?

    Nidar Singh: Shastar literally means weapons, Vidiya means knowledge. Shaster Vidiya is the name of traditional Indian martial arts of Northern India.

    KG: Can you tell us briefly about the history of Shastervidiya?

    NS: There is no single source of history of Shaster Vidiya. There are a number of mythological Indian stories regards the origins of Shastar Vidiya. One that is popularly spoken of by Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, is how once the king of Indian demigods Indira, defeated by demon Muru, fled from thefield of battle. Then Brahma (Hindu God of creation), as commanded by highest God, lit a great sacrificial fire. Then on composing the mystical incantation, Brahma Kavch (still recited by Akali Nihang warriors for protection to this day) offered sacrifices and praised God's divine power Goddess Chandi as a sword. She then manifested herself as Goddess Asi (sword). Taking hold of the sword, the demigods Vishna, Shiva, Indira, etc. defeated their demonic foes. This sword was then passed to the great Sage Manu (Noah of India). He created the Khashtriya (Indian martial) cast and gave then the Asi and all its knowledge of Shaster Vidiya. In time this Vidiya was taught in the great ancient university city of Taxila (now in Northern Pakistan) from where Buddhist monks took it to China and beyond. The Sikh warriors of the 16th century founded by Guru Nanak (1469-1539) are the inheritors of this ancient Khashtriya Indian martial tradition.

    KG: Is it unique to India or was it influenced by other oriental martial arts?

    NS: The art is basically unique to India but in the past it was influenced by Arabic and Persian arts, such as 'Shamshir Baji', both through friendly and hostile interaction.

    KG: What areas of combat does it cover, eg unarmed combat, warfare and street?

    NS: The art exists at four levels.
    Sava Raksha - Traditional, Unarmed, armed self-defence techniques.
    Greh Rakha - Tradtional tactics and strategies of home-defence.
    Goah Rakhia - Tradtional tactics and strategies of village-defence.
    Jangi Vidiya - Traditionan Indian Sikh battlefield techniques.

    KG: It seems to specialize in using strategy and deception. How would you employ this in a one against many opponents situation?

    NS: Knowing the appropriate strategy and employing the appropriate tactics is the key to success in this art. The best strategies and tactics are, on the whole, though not always, concealed from the opponent. So the Vidiya is very devious and deceptive in application. What you don't see coming has the most impact. As for one fighting against many and what strategies and tactics are to be employed in this situation; it depends on the scenario. One simple strategy is to explode the the approaching opponents then, staying on the periphery, close in and aggresively herd them together knocking them all off-balance, confusing their sense of direction. Then appropriately using them as shields, making them obstacles for each other, quickly mixing amongst them and dispatching them employing unarmed or weapon techniques. Do not pull away from them and let them gain balance or space for maneuverability, pile them togehter and cut or strike them down. This strategy is known as Satha Vashona (clumping and cutting down crops to lay in the field) in Shaster Vidiya.

    KG: Is there a spiritual side, I hear about a 'warrior yoga' you teach?

    NS: Yes, there is a deep spiritual tradition. It incorporates a special form of dynamic martial Yoga, 'Sanjam Kiriya Viriyam', the self-disciplining excercises of a Sikh warrior.

    KG: You mentioned battle with external foes and internal ones, could you elaborate on this.

    NS: External foes are Dusht Dokhian meaning evil beings who cause pain to others. They disrupt the universal Dharma. Internal foes are the vices within Man. Chief amongst them are five: Kaam (illegitimate lust), Krodha (Out of context anger), Lobh (inappropriate material desire), Moh (misplaced love) and Hankar (Egocentricity).

    KG: Do you have any texts or scriptures on war and battle?

    NS: Yes, there are two main martial texts amongst the Akali Nihangs. Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar both authored by the great warrior Akali Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708).

    KG: Tell us about the ancient Sikh warrior traditions like hunting and applying blood to weapons and battle standards. Do you still maintain these? Is this relevant in today's modern world?

    NS: Since ancient times hunting has been part and parcel of Indian warrior tradition. To build and test their courage ancient Hindu, Sikh, Mogul and other warriors would engage tigers, bears, elephants, etc. in single combat using a variety of weapons on foot or horse back. Today the Khalsa Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, in order to maintain their martial spirit, still hunt as much as modern times allow or more generally decapitate goats and with its blood anoint their weaponsm standards, battle drums and the foreheads of warriors. For Akali Nihangs these traditions are as relevant today as in the past, in the sense that they keep them attached to their martial heritage.

    KG: Some people would say, what is the point of training with a sword when an AK-47 would do the job a lot quicker. What is your view?

    NS: Akali Nihang warriors in India do keep and train in use of all forms of modern firearms such as AK-47, but the AK-47 alone cannot attach a Sikh to his martial history, heritage, ideology or philosophy. Any undisciplined Tom, Dick or Harry may pick up an AK-47 and kill, as in the 1980s during the nightmare years of terrorism in the Punjab. Swordsmanship and its related arts take years of assiduous disciplined training. These long years of hard training under the guidance of a Gurdev (master) forge the spirit, mind and body, tempering it with all the best qualities of an enlightened soul such as morality, ethics, character, intellect, wisdom, physical-mental discipline and spiritual equipoise. All these are the qualities of a true Sikh warrior. Such warriors upholding Dharma seek to bring peace and prosperity to all. In contrast, the AK-47, weapon of choice of most terrorists in the world, in the hands of undisciplined fools gives nothing but death and suffering.

    KG: On your website, a Nihang Warrior is seen decapitating a goat (on video). How is this related to your martial art?

    NS: Chatka (to kill quickly) is the fundamental principle behind Shaster Vidiya. Chatka does not come easy to humans even though they may sit down with their ham sandwich and munch away. Ask most meat eaters would you have killed, skinned and cooked what you eat? The answer in most cases would be 'no'. Humans have a natural aversion to killing, so Sikh warriors, in order to overcome this natural human inhibition to kill and shed blood, decapitate goats. Goats are chosen, apart from the obvious fact they are a good source of meat and leather, because a mature goat's neck is very close in size to a human neck. Akali Nihang warriors state that the same amount of force is required to decapitate a goat as humans, so it is good martial strategy. Once decapitated, the cutting and butchering of the goat also serves to help overcome the human inhibition to shed blood.

    KG: Each of the forms you demonstrated were based upon Hindu Gods in animal forms. Could you describe these a little and their effectiveness in combat?

    NS: These Khat Ang Yudhan (Six classical combat forms) are:
    1. Virah Yudhan (Wild Boar form) characterised by explosive close quater multiple strikes to bodies 107 Marma.
    2. Sheshnag Yudhan (Cobra from) characterised by close quater fluid strikes and limb-snaring, joint-breaking, dislocating and choking techniques.
    3. Garrur Yudhan (Eagle/Gander/Peacock/Cockerel form) characterised by angling off opponent to maneuver around opponent to devastate with a long-range barrage of hand and foot strikes to Marma.
    4. Nandi Pentra (Bull form) characterised by close quarter explosive digging strikes and stand up grappling and body mangling techniques.
    5. Nar Singha Yudhan (Tiger form) characterised bu evasive hypnotic footwork with sudden pouncing attacks to take opponent down to ground fighting.
    6. Hanuman Yudhan (Langur monkey form) characterised by low ground hugging baiting postures. It is strong in low high explosive adroit attacks to take the opponent down to the ground to destroy but quickly springing up so as not to get entangled in ground fighting.

    Each of the Pentras (forms) are highly effective by themselvesm but when combined they are most effective.

    KG: There is a huge variety in bladed weapons, what are your favourite weapons and why?

    NS: Shaster Vidiya has the largest range of weaponry of any martial art in the world. To say that any particular one is my favourite is impossible. I get pleasure in training with all the weapons of the art in particular the mind and spirit.

    KG: Some of our readers may have seen 'Gatka' (more popular Sikh martial art) being demonstrated around the UK on Sikh festivals. How is Shastervidiya different and why is it virtually unheard of, even in Sikh circles?

    NS: Gatka is a Sikh martial exhibitionist art, which evolve under the restrictions of the British Raj in the 1860s. Shastervidiya is the original Sikh combat art that, under the restrictions of the British Raj, went underground. Due to Shaster Vidiya's secretive nature, not even many Sikhs now know of its true form. Today, because mention of Shaster Vidiya is still found in ancient Sikh texts, you will still occasionally hear of its name amongst Sikhs. Though on a whole at present the general Sikh public, including practitioners of Gatka, are confusing the tmasha (circus act) of Gatka with Shaster Vidiya.

    KG: How easy and practical is it to learn?
    NS: The self-defence aspect of Shaster Vidiya is very practical and easy to learn. On the other hand, the classical battlefield aspect of Shaster Vidiya with its classical Pentras and live blade sparring is extremely practical and effective in application, but it is not very easy to learn.

    KG: Does it cater for women and children?
    NS: Yes it does. Children, women and adult males are taught in seperate syllabuses.

    KG: Do you have a grading structure like belts or sashes?
    NS: No.

    KG: In your opinion, what makes Shaster Vidiya unique as compared to Eskrima or Wushu?
    NS: In terms of character, Shaster Vidiya is unique in its Punjabi Indian-ness. In terms of technique its unique in the vast array of strategies, tactics and techniques it enshrines, combining the six classical forms. Further, its uniqueness lis in the manner it combines unarmed techniques with weapons. Even the attire of the Akali Nihang warrior from his bracelets to the arrowhead protusion from the top of his war turban are but deadly weapons. Yet the most outstanding uniqueness of this ancient art, which strikes all its observers, lies in its exceptionally fluid footwork and technique.

    KG: How long hav you been learning and teaching this martial art?

    NS: Over 20 years.

    KG: Are there many masters of this art?

    NS: As guns became more popular the emphasis on this art decreased in the itinierant Akali Nihang armies. Today there are not many masters of this art alive. The ones I know, if still alive, are Nihang Baba Ram Singh in UP, India and Bhai Ranjit Singh of Patiala who has partial knowledge of this art. There are no doubt others in Budha Dal (oldest Sikh martial order established in 1606) but they being itinerant mendicants of secretive nature, are not easy to track down.

    KG: Plesae tell us of any real-live encounters where yu have had to use this knowledge to protect yourself or others?

    NS: In self-defence, it is taught to circumvent and avoid violence where possible. Only a fool goes seeking violence. Yet over the years I have encountered knife, stick, sword etc. attacks. One Nihang fool I disarmed and knocked out in Anandpur sought to shoot me. I have also encountered mobs in Delhi targetting Sikhs. Each time my Vidiya stood me well. In the UK I have had numerous indiviuals test my art in the Akhara. Our Baba Darbara Singh Akhara established in the middle of the 17th century allows for anyone to come and challenge the Akhara master. It is challenges that keep the Vidiya strong.

    KG: Does one have to be a Sikh to learn this art?

    NS: No, the art is open to all of any race, creed, religion or colour provided they make these three pledges:
    Not to abuse the art.
    Not to sell the art.
    Not to teach anyone who does not pledge to the above two pledges.

    KG: You don't have set fees - how are your classes funded?

    NS: Each student according to his/her capacity, gives monetary contribution as they salute weapons and ancient Gurdevs at the beginning of each class.

    KG: Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the readers of Martial Arts Illustrated.

    NS: Its my pleasure, thankyou Krishna for giving me this opportunity to further propogate Shastarvidiya.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •