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Dear Nicholas, NICE FLAME. Direct personal attacks based on pure assumptions out of the blue -- mostly things you would be ashamed to even think about me if you knew me in person -- interspersed with little evidence of any attempt to even try understand -- I don't expect agreement, but I do expect civility and an attempt at understanding. Keep the rest of the rubish off the forum. So should I write you off completely and laugh in your (post's) face or should I respond to your post and try once again to fight for understanding? I'm sorely tempted by the former, but am going to try the latter because I hate giving up. (several deep breaths later) Please understand that I am not attempting to further anger you. Your post explained much about your feelings and reactions. Furthermore, you did warn me about the tone at the beginning, and good thing too. I will disregard it and cut to -- what I see -- as your points. Again, no insult is intended here, so if you need time to post a cool response, please take it. I don't expect either of us to convert the others opinion, but perhaps a better understanding can ensue. You bring up the points of insult and humor as weapons, so I do feel that the thread is still viable here, provided we maintain a civil tone. ------- "This is why I avoid the commodity of saracsm entirely while on-line, and recommend this same course of action." I try to do the same unless it is very well contextualized, but occasionally fail :-( "the majority of his suffering he brought upon himself." and "he asked for nothing." This is the crux of our argument here, I think. I would argue that we all have to deal with lots of stuff we don't ask for, and that our response and reactions to those things have their consequences. You can run away, plant your feet, step aside, grab the bull by the horns, fight back, etc. Through whatever reaction we choose, we bring consequences upon ourselves. In our example, Cyrano certainly didn't ask to be taunted initially, but he chose a confrontational reaction, as opposed to a pacifist one. Therefore he brought upon himself further grief because he created enemies (who eventually do him in) instead of relative peace. Alternatively, he therefore brought upon himself freedom from (many) conventions instead of giving in and living like a coward. Alternatively, he therefore brought upon himself a life of reaction through continual confrontation with others instead of a life of action through following a few more conventions. Alternatively, etc, you get the picture. The difference in our viewpoints (yours and mine) is how we should react to insult, although I initially meant it to be about not taking insult so quickly. More on that later, if I get to it. I would like to point out that you and I have some very similar past experiences, but have taken different routes in dealing with it. I do not wish to put one forth as absolutely better than the other, but my way works very well for me, so I proffered it forth as an alternative. "I spent all my childhood being laughed at quite cruelly, and I have had quite enough." Me too. Laughed at, mocked, chased down, cast out, on and on and on. And I was so hyper sensitive that I often thought I'd made a massive public fool of myself at times when no one else even noticed anything. "No, I don't think you do. Nor do you, in particular, care. The fact of pain and humiliation arising from being made a mockery of seems to be entirely beyond your conceptual reach." See above. But I developed a different strategy for dealing with it which I still use today. You can't possibly hurt me through mockery unless I care about your opinion of me. And if I do care enough about your opinion of me that I will call you a friend, then I will probably be able to take anything you say with a grain of salt, or understand it for friendly jibing. (The one place this strategy completely falls through the floor is in breaking up with a good friend or loved one. That still hurts as much as anything ever could, especially if they take the cheap mocking shots on their way out.) In other words, why should I bother trying to control others when I can control myself instead? Why should I give others the power to insult me? If someone insults me out of the blue, or at the least provocation, then they are obviously basing that insult on nothing important, why should I bother to be bothered about it other than to hope their day (or life) gets better? "Because it HURTS, you inconsiderate little vulgarism! Being mocked, insulted, and laughged at HURTS! It is an assault, and ought to be treated as such (see below)." Not anymore. Not when I don't give them the power to hurt me. hence my statement "there is a power greater than the power to laugh at one's self, and that is to let others laugh at you." "the bewildered, the cowed, and those afraid to stand up for their rights will laugh along, or pretend to, for fear of reprisal," None of these adjectives apply to me in the least, which would be very obvious to you if you knew me. I refuse to live my life in fear. (As an aside, there is an interesting theological opinion that hell is a state of mind, with fear being the main state.) "largely because of the prevalence of opinions such as yours." I didn't suggest cowardice and hiding one's feelings, I suggested taking control of the situation. The difference is pretty clear in person. "It is controllable if people learn to shut their mean-spirited little mouths, as they are obligated to do." That is not you in control, that is waiting for others. Regardless of how mean spirited they are or how much effort you put into trying to control their behavior, you are still depending on someone else. "in allowing oneslf to be subjected to malicious indignity for the amusement of others" I don't believe I should let their intent be the sole dictate of how I should react to them. This gets back to my point of letting the small stuff slide instead of taking umbrage so quickly. more on that later. "those too cowardly and/or indifferent to be bothered with standing up for themselves or anybody else." Are a pathetic lot. Thankfully I'm not one of them. And now, back to my original contention, that people were over reacting. If some random person calls me a name, I'm not going to waste the energy to pay attention to it. If they post something that is less than the epitome of politeness, I'm not going to say anything. If they are directly insulting to me, I'll call them on it. (Your post that I am responding to was directly insulting, but you did warn me, and you don't know me, so your statements about me were uninformed. Therefore I can relatively easily gloss over it. If it had been your first post to me, my reaction would have been different.) On the other hand, if some stranger intentionally trips me into a puddle, that is different and they will bear the consequences to the best of my ability. "There is a difference between going with the flow and allowing oneself to be flushed down the toilet." By who's call? If we use your last post and your sensitivity, then I've been flushed and and well on my way to the ocean. But I don't feel flushed. I feel like you put a lot miore energy into your insults than I spent brushing them off. "And it is foolishness to say that what is widely tolerated is necessarily what is right" I could not agree more. It is important to constantly examine one's life and to be deliberate in one's actions. But I didn't say it was right, I said I thought it was more effective. I still think that confrontation is a tool best used sparingly but deliberately, rather than out of habit. From a personal perspective, my life seems to go the best when I can keep my knee-jerk reactions in check. "No, it is merely the outwardly safest." ALSO the safest. Not "merely", but "also." "Rubbish...." Baloney. One of the great themes in Cyrano is the deliberateness of his life, of not giving in to something he doesn't believe in, and to constantly strive for an ideal, knowing it is at least partly in vain because he can never escape all the cruelty and mockery thrown at him. Instead of escaping, he takes it on and mocks back. He excels at the worlds cruel actions to the point where he is better than the world at the world's own game. That doesn't make his life any easier, its just the choice he made because that is what he needed to be able to live with himself. He is better than the world, and he knows it, even if the world refuses to accept it. --------------- "humor is a *weapon*" Often, yes. We are in agreement there. But not all humor is based on the misfortune of others, and other things need to be taken into consideration, such as the person delivering the humor, their relationship to the subject of the humor, their delivery of the humor, and the situation the humor is refering to. "as a person well-known for his sense of humor, apart from his dislike for being humiliated" Again we are similar. Where we differ is what we consider to be an acceptable level of use. I would rather overlook a fair amout of potentially insulting humor (and insults), maybe rolling my eyes, preferably not deigning any reaction. You would rather not let anything slide if it is potentially even the slightest bit insulting to you. In other words, I feel humiliated less easily than you do. I think this is a positive thing, and am glad for it, but you apparently feel a stronger conviction about doing the "right thing" and bringing people to task for being inconsiderate than I do. "Humor is a weapon not to be drawn without cause, and to use it is for all intents an purposes a declaration of war." ... "Humor is a viler weapon than many of the more tangible sort" ... "Humor is a weapon reserved only for those uniquely execrable individuals who have so transgressed the boundaries of decency and humanity as to be deseerving of an indefensible and ruthless attack."..."But casual conversation? No." Honestly, I have a hard time meshing these statements with your claim of being known for your sense of humor. They seem to directly conflict, in fact. Perhaps you were not using "humor is a *weapon*" as a blanket statement about humor afterall? ------------ I have more to say about humor as a weapon, but its going to have to wait. I need to get back to work. If you wish to continue the conversation, please take the time you need to post a non-flame response. Another post like the previous one will be brushed off and ignored. Eric
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