Moderate niku in the $500-600+ range... Munetoshi?

[J Cooper]

Hey Mr. Phan, maybe you could answer this for others interested as well:

In the Enkai description, it says that the blade has been forge folded using T10 carbon steel.

But, in their 'certificate of authenticity', it says the "blade material" is Damascus. Is that supposed to be equivalent to 'steel used' or different?

[M. Phan]

First of all, I did not buy that katana for the folded steel. I personally think folded steel is superficial and has no added benefit to the performance of a blade. I bought it because it has the blade length I want and the niku I want.

If you want nice hada and other grain texture, get a Dynasty Forge tri-steel. It is forged from three different steel type. I have one as well and it shows much better than the Munetoshi Enkai and in my opinion better looking than other Hanwei folded steel such as Bushido or Tori.

Dynasty Forge fit, finish, and polish is far better than other brands. I just wish it has a shorter blade with more niku.

The Enkai polish is OK, but nothing to write home about. It is mono-steel folded. Dasmascus (corrected terminology is forged welding) compose of more than one type of steel.

Recently I noticed one minor flaw in the Enkai. When you do noto, the habaki does not slide in the saya smoothly. I felt a slight bump. The same is true of Hanwei Tea Culture. None of my Dynasty Forge, even the cheap Musha Class, has this issue.

It is a good cutting blade but don't buy it if you want a display piece. There are better looking blades out there.

[michael granovsky]

Thanks for all the input M.Phan, its been valuable to me in making a decision. I have one more question for you. You have the enviable ability to put a DF Bushi and PC Bushido side by side and compare them. The DF has scant niku... Does the Bushido have any more niku at all, or are they very similar? Like you, I wish DF offered more niku, it would have made the decision process very easy. Thanks!

[M. Phan]

Thanks for all the input M.Phan, its been valuable to me in making a decision. I have one more question for you. You have the enviable ability to put a DF Bushi and PC Bushido side by side and compare them. The DF has scant niku... Does the Bushido have any more niku at all, or are they very similar? Like you, I wish DF offered more niku, it would have made the decision process very easy. Thanks!

Unfortunately, I never had a chance to put them side-by-side. I bought the Hanwei Bushido first and shipped it directly to Aaron Justice for customization. I had a chance to handle it a bit when I visited Aaron at his home. It is still with Aaron. Then I bought the DF Bushi afterward. If my memory is correct, neither of them have much niku. Perhap the Bushido have little more niku, but since I cannot compare them side-by-side, I cannot not answer accurately.

[James Rot.]

No offense Glen, but you're just drawing hypothesis from baseless assumptions from other mediocre brands. You know what they say about making assumptions...

It's much better to keep an open mind, as we have all seen the tremendous jump in the technology in forging that has been done in recent years. It seems like forges will keep getting better with the use of better technology, so who are we to judge and say a sword is "bad" without even handling or using it? I know you guys are looking out for people, but I have seen many reviews that give positive ratings to all of munetoshi's swords. While a cheap beater may scream foul to you, it is often all some people will be able to afford - People in this price range usually don't ever buy a higher end sword (hell, it's better then them buy a stainless steel katana off ebay, we all know what might happen when they swing that around).

Imo at least handle or inspect one of their swords before you place it on the do not buy list, maybe you won't be so quick to deem it of poor quality after you actually handle one. You gotta keep in mind that DF and Hanwei started somewhere, right?

[Glen C.]

Hi James,

If I may, let me use part of your reply to further illustrate part of what I wrote as a hurdle some will reach in progressing past the trash swords.

While a cheap beater may scream foul to you, it is often all some people will be able to afford - People in this price range usually don't ever buy a higher end sword (hell, it's better then them buy a stainless steel katana off ebay, we all know what might happen when they swing that around).

The part regarding the substitution of simple steel for the wallhangers is the crux of what I was getting at. It is the mass of reviews underlining "good enough" and "all I'll never need" that means many learn nothing but a piece of steel they can cut light stuff with. The real bee in my bonnet might be that the lack of respect for any genre labeled as beater is ( in my mind ) just more ad copy for these disposable swords.

No one has shown me that Munetoshi is not just re-branding pallets of $5 swords and that is the perspective I have in having read a fair number of the reviews. This while seeing the same sword owners not learning a great deal more than "not bad for the money" and then start over with either rebuilding junk or buying back into the same bracket again. Bad wraps, bad fittings, both apparently joyous heralds of bargains.

What I see is the flavor of the month club and yes, the overall market has improved the baseline cheap swords. What assumptions could you make of my perspective while I know little of yours? That's kind of beside the point of any regarding the very basic formula of getting what one pays for.

Cheers

Hotspur; shaking my head but at the same time really enjoying a new $5 well used fifty-sixty year old watch while learning what makes them tick. I could just go buy a brand new $5 watch. I am denying no one anything, simply voicing opinion

How did we get here so fast?

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81956

[Timo Qvintus]

Since poor Glen seems to be fighting the good fight on his own, I thought I'd chime in..

I have never seen or handled a Munetoshi. I don't need to, either. All I need to see is the webstore front, their product description, and most important of all, their price-tag. You get what you pay for. The swords sell for less than decent-to-good quality sword components cost, not to mention labour costs and whatnot. So they're cutting corners. Just like Masahiro, Cheness, etc etc. I have literally taken these low-end swords apart and I know exactly what they're made of.

If you don't want to spend much money and get something that cuts through a milk jug or a single tatami mat, and is safe, get a machete. If you want a katana-like object for the price, then go for a Hanwei Practical. If you want something that you think looks cool, get one of these small-brand chinatana, just do not kid yourself that it's a good sword. And for heaven's sake, be careful. Niku (or lack thereof) should be the least of your concerns.

At $500-600 range, I would recommend a Kris Cutlery sword. In the last 6 years there has been exactly one complaint of a KC sword. If you want it to look cool, buy a KC bare blade or shirasaya and have it (re-)mounted.

BTW, never use Hanwei's price-tag for comparison, they can sell for lower price because of the sheer volume of their production compared to any other sword-company out there.

[michael granovsky]

I did look into Kris Cutlery, unfortunately they dont have any folded steel... dealbreaker for me.

[Glen C.]

I Don't see Kris listing the Yagyu anymore, although the picture still heads that section. Kult of Athena lists the Kris Cutlery Yagyu as backordered and is folded 1060. One of the fellers over at SBG did a polish job on his and the result was fairly spectacular for what it is. So much visual is subjective anyway. As mentioned in prefacing my own experiences, the Yagyu had/has perked up my notice and was a real consideration before other's impressions. The review and other thoughts should be out there via Google or searching their old forum board. Not everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure but there were some visually apparent things that spoke volumes to me. In hand, another was quite happy with it and not just for the price.

Cheers

Hotspur; the Yagyu may have been a single batch of them never to retirun but I would keep an eye on what Cecil brings in to the Kris Cutlery site

[M. Phan]

I Don't see Kris listing the Yagyu anymore, although the picture still heads that section. Kult of Athena lists the Kris Cutlery Yagyu as backordered and is folded 1060. One of the fellers over at SBG did a polish job on his and the result was fairly spectacular for what it is. So much visual is subjective anyway. As mentioned in prefacing my own experiences, the Yagyu had/has perked up my notice and was a real consideration before other's impressions. The review and other thoughts should be out there via Google or searching their old forum board. Not everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure but there were some visually apparent things that spoke volumes to me. In hand, another was quite happy with it and not just for the price.

Cheers

Hotspur; the Yagyu may have been a single batch of them never to retirun but I would keep an eye on what Cecil brings in to the Kris Cutlery site

That family of models are not manufactured by Kris Cutlery at their factory. None of the 1060 model are. They are outsourced to an un-named forge in China.

PS: Unlike the 5160 models, the 1060 models are not well reviewed. This does NOT mean they are negatively reviews. It just mean that there is no review, or no informative review.

[Glen C.]

That family of models are not manufactured by Kris Cutlery at their factory. None of the 1060 model are. They are outsourced to an un-named forge in China.

This would be new news to me..just how? I have obviously not ignored Kris for more than a decade, so of course I had no idea. Right? <------- That's sarcasm by the way No one on SFi has ever discussed Kris Cutlery. Right? <-----more sarcasm. Yes, I am and have been fully aware for a great many years that Kris/Cecil buys/has bought from other sources. <--------To be as succinct in response without the sarcasm.

PS: Unlike the 5160 models, the 1060 models are not well reviewed. This does NOT mean they are negatively reviews. It just mean that there is no review, or no informative review.

Perhaps not a great deal of discussion in comparison to some but I would venture to say more has been discussed than you may have read.
http://sbgswordforum.proboards.com/i...ay&thread=9047

Might I suggest some reading on one's own (directed at any interested) and start with general searches on the various boards, then the internet at large. One could start here with the keyword Kris and then realize how much conversation has been written discussing Kris' imported (not in house) swords. Even revisiting the SFI 1999 online magazine articles might be enlightening to some.



Cheers

Hotspur; The signal to noise ratio often deadens a lot of general awareness and common knowledge

PS

Here's a good read
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=102498

[M. Phan]

Glen,

First of all, calm down. You are getting upset over nothing important.

I may be generalizing a bit, but SFI is not exactly the most friendly place to discuss "inexpensive" swords. Kris Cutlery are decidely inexpensive, none of their sword are above $300. I am simply want to point out that Kris in-house 5160 models have excellent records with multiple reviews. There is only one review of the 1060 and it is NOT in this forum. I am fully aware of the review you mentioned. I am a member of the other forum.

I also want to point out that searching the term "Kris" is not possible in this forum. There is a minium number of character requirement for the search engine. One cannot search MAS or T-10 either, too few characters.

There is no need to twist in the knot like a pretzel about this. You maybe aware of the information, but there many others who are not. You are the moderator and have been here longer than most. You cannot expect a visitor to know as much as you do.

Furthermore, I notice that there is a culture that believe that if something was said in 2005, it is not worth talking about it again. Things changed. New information emerged.

[Glen C.]

Glen,

First of all, calm down. You are getting upset over nothing important.

There is no tension here but humor bordering on open laughter while trying to be civil. Further I am not questioning your own state of mind (think about that).

I may be generalizing a bit, but SFI is not exactly the most friendly place to discuss "inexpensive" swords.

Yes, you are absolutely over generalizing. Especially so as someone registering here a bit more than three months ago asking what your first live sword should be. If you care to, note (or not) I have been a proponent of inexpensive swords since my own beginnings here.

Kris Cutlery are decidely inexpensive, none of their sword are above $300. I am simply want to point out that Kris in-house 5160 models have excellent records with multiple reviews.

No kidding? Did you bother to read the Kris 5160 comparison in the 1999 online magzine I linked to?

There is only one review of the 1060 and it is NOT in this forum. I am fully aware of the review you mentioned.

Yet apparently openly ignoring that discussion of Cecil's other sources and products that have been a matter of course previous to this 2002 edition of SFI. Further, there had been other discussions of the Yagyu.

I am a member of the other forum.

Do you profess as much beginning expertise there as you have expressed here ?

I also want to point out that searching the term "Kris" is not possible in this forum. There is a minium number of character requirement for the search engine.

The simple search for the four letter word Kris results in a maximum of 500 threads going right back to 2002. There are many more threads than that but have been sorted both by time and relevance. This seems to be another matter of expertise that might not be quite on the ball Try it, don't tell me you can't but maybe you don't want to.

There is no need to twist in the knot like a pretzel about this. You maybe aware of the information, but there many others who are not.

Including that Kris is actually a usable search term here. Try the advanced search page and put some thought into using it. By the way, not twisting at all. You quoted me and then are concerned with a rebuttal of your response to me.

You are the moderator and have been here longer than most. You cannot expect a visitor to know as much as you do.

Hence coaxing simplicities such as visiting the front page of this site and encouraging all to check life out a bit. Maybe even reading links offered in subforums where some post their introductions here.

I was drafted as a moderator in the fall of 2007. I have been reading and participating on various sword boards since 1998-1999. Longer on earth? Well, back to 1954 anyway.

Furthermore, I notice that there is a culture that believe that if something was said in 2005, it is not worth talking about it again. Things changed. New information emerged.

As far as I can tell, your expertise here regarding production katana began late summer of 2010.

It is true that knowledge is always expanding. It is a shame so many choose not to build a foundation for that newly found knowledge. I get a kick out of the expanse Google and other online libraries offer me. Then enable (the interested) others to revisit period texts later butchered by discussion forums and current publications.

Cheers

Hotspur; am I missing the eclipse as I write or is that tomorrow?

[M. Phan]

Glen,

The "join date" is clearly on the upper right hand corner of every post I wrote. It does not take a genius to figure out that I joined the Forum in September 2010. It further does not take a genius to find my first post. I joined SBG even later than that. Since I joined, I have bought more than 14 swords, from affordable to expensive, all because I want to know what people are talking about. 14 swords in less than 3 months is more than most people buy in a year. I am lucky to be able afford to spend so much on hobby. Therefore, I have learned much from actually handling them. Reviews are helpful but do not substitute for holding them in your hands.

And in once instance, I bought a sword based on information on this forum (as well as other sword forum). The information turned out to be dated and obsolete. The Hanwei Bushido I bought did not have the same amount of niku (or thickness) of the earlier version. Things have changed and no-one were reporting it. BTW, the review on Kris Cutlery you mentioned is more than a decade old. Bill Clinton was still the President then.

Concerning the my post that raise your blood pressure, you commented on the Yagyu without stating that it is outsourced. This is relevant. You clearly knew this but did not think it was important to let others know. Instead, you expected others to go through multiple threads and posts to find the little information you could easily provide. Since you already mentioned the sword, writting a couple more words mentioning that fact is not much more work. I thought that the information is worth repeating. Don't get mad at me for informing others what you knew but did not want to inform.

If I choose to save other people time and effort by informing them of a fact rather than let them spend hours searching through this forum or any other forum, it is my choice. I am wasting my time, not your time. Why do you care?

My first sword I bought had raving reviews (here and elseswhere), a Hanwei Bamboo Mat. Everything about the review was true. The nodes of the same was gigantic. The hamon was nice. But there was one important omission, the tsuka was axe-handled. Someone could have told me that, but like you, did not bother to. So now if I know something, however small, I tell people about it. Again, it is my time to waste.

I profess no expertise other than my personal hand-on (emphasis on hand-on) experience with the swords I actually own and comparing them. My innitial response to this thread is because I actually own the sword in question, which NO ONE ELSE participating in this thread have ever even touch it. You obviously seem to think that when a person first collecting swords matter more than whether he or she actually own the sword being discussed.

Now that I think about it; it seems that you are trouble by the fact that I joined and started collecting in September 2010 rather than any inaccurary in what I said. I am wondering why.

[Glen C.]

Glen,

I profess no expertise other than my personal hand-on (emphasis on hand-on) experience with the swords I actually own and comparing them. My innitial response to this thread is because I actually own the sword in question, which NO ONE ELSE participating in this thread have ever even touch it.

I am condensing some of this for brevity.

There really is no reason to emphasis text and certainly none to capitalize your perception in order for others tor read and understand your words. I am responding to what you are expressing as expertise and disapproval in your own responses to me. I do feel I have been quite objective throughout this thread (conjecture if you care to label it as such).

I am having problems understanding this

You obviously seem to think that when a person first collecting swords matter more than whether he or she actually own the sword being discussed.

If I have the gist of what you are saying, I must repeat that I have denied no one the right to describe, endorse or loath any blades mentioned. I have though expressed my own opinion on the vendor's labeling and somewhat weep foolishly over the ad copy. Is that reason to attack me and my sensibilities?

I have also mentioned Kris in regard to the Yagu and you might have seen my earlier comments/interest of the model both here at SFI and SBG. If you have found that the search function does recognize four letter words, try Bingo for some earlier discussions of Cecil's other imports. Note also in my initial post this evening ending with (typo included)

the Yagyu may have been a single batch of them never to retirun but I would keep an eye on what Cecil brings in to the Kris Cutlery site

You quoted my entire post, that's fine but either what I posted went unread or/and you were simply quoting mine to tack on more regarding Kris. If it was simply extra and added information, my post would have stood alone in and of itself. My follow ups are what seems to trouble you. That leads to...

It seems that you are trouble by the fact that I joined in September 2010 rather than any inaccurary in what I said. I am wondering why.

Inaccuracy, one such as spouting out that the search function doesn't recognize Kris as a keyword. You have pointed out in the bit I included above that you are clearly capable of amassing a broad spectrum of offerings in a short amount of time. It is great for any to share first hand impressions, whether new or ancient. It is troubling to me only in that what I see as time spent taking exception to some brief observations I made regarding junk swords and Yagyu possibilities then occupies both our time and murdering a whole passle of electrons. Throughout that, I personally consider some of it all a bit mouthy but we can all get that way at times. Mouthy all the time, it can get less easy to read.

Cross purposes? I don't think that's a case either but there are a lot of posts that need no reply or rebuke in kind. You are clearly ready to question my stability while I have only your newly acquired ninety day expertise to rely on.

You mention Clinton in office during the 1999 SFI online publications but have you read them? Care to? Browsed the front page entirely? Care to? No? We'll set up an express drive through for folk and maybe we'll put you in charge.

This and other sites can also be accessed through internet search engines and many variables can be found if one wants to read for themselves.

Cheers

Hotspur; the eclipse is tomorrow night, too cool. The last full one until 2014 unless I have that wrong too. On the equinox. Winter isoon here up north of the equator

[M. Phan]

Duplicate.

[M. Phan]

Glen,

Clearly the tone and verbage of your post (post #36) indicates that you were angry at me. For absolutely no reason I may add. Pointing that out is not questioning your sanity or stability. Sane and stable people get angry (unless said person is an android or devoid of all human emotion). It was a clear fact; you were angry at me. It is only expected of me to ask why.

At that point in time, I have not said anything offensive or insulting to you. None. We differed in opinion on Munetoshi earlier on but I have dropped that matter entirely. So the issue of Munetoshi was done. I stopped arguing with you about that topic more than 10 days ago.

I merely added on the information about Kris Cutlery you clearly knew but witheld (for whatever reason). You expected people to search through all the posts in SFI to find a simple fact that Kris Cutlery 1060 was out-sourced in China. You knew that, but did not want to give out that information. Well, it is your right to not inform people. I decided to give out that information. It is your choice to withold information. It is my choice to put it out.

None of our choice conflict the other. So what if I repeated what was said elsewhere. Why does that anger you? As I said before, it is my time to waste.

PS: Even now, I have not said anything insulting or offensive to you (you may claim otherwise, but the fact speaks for itself), even after you went out of your way to insult me. I like to know why. In fact, common courtesy require that if you insult a person, you need to explain what that person did to warrant the insult.

[Glen C.]

Glen,

Clearly the tone and verbage of your post (post #36) indicates that you were angry at me. For absolutely no reason I may add. Pointing that out is not questioning your sanity. It was a clear fact.

Clearly you have your own perception of my sarcastic outlook of your reply. Anger? No and as mentioned after that hardly containing civil laughter.

At that point in time, I have not said anything offensive or insulting to you.

As I had offered nothing but the sarcasm, agreed.

None.

Yet you were clearly replying to me to set the record sraight while not reading the entirety of my post.

We differed in opinion on Munetoshi earlier on but I have dropped that matter entirely. So the issue of Munetoshi was done. I stopped arguing with you about that topic more than 10 days ago.

I wouldn't call it arguing but if that label fits your discussion and outlook, that's fine. I have simply put forth my own opinion and responses to your judgement of my observations.

I merely added on the information about Kris Cutlery you clearly knew but witheld (for whatever reason). You expected people to search through all the posts in SFI to find a simple fact that Kris Cutlery 1060 was out-sourced in China. You knew that, but did not want to give out that information. I decided to give out that information. It is your choice to withold information. It is my choice to put it out.

You are right, I did not cut and paste a history of Kris Cutlery but regarded one of its products and did include (read that last line again) that it was a batch brought into Cecil's business. My post was in response to the original poster mentioning there were no Kris Cutlery folded blades, thus no interest. You are simply wrong in making an assumption that I was withholding some quite evident truth. If you are going to publish truths, be complete about it and offer the searches yourself. Oh, I forgot, searching doesn't work.

None of our choice conflict the other. So what if I repeated what was said elsewhere. Why does that anger you? As I said before, it is my time to waste.

No anger but a response to a quoted post and perceived by me as a directed response.

Cheers

Hotspur; have you ever divided handled time of each acquisition by the number of days? I know I will never catch up with learning all of the few dozen here. However, I have just the one paltry bargain katana and I do know that one quite well

[M. Phan]

Then let agree that we had a misunderstanding.

(1) I did not respond to you or question you on Kris Cutlery. I merely added on more information to your original post.
(2) You were not angry at me.
(3) I never questioned your sanity or stability.
(4) All perceived insults by both parties are simply a misunderstanding.

[Glen C.]

Yes, simple lunacy

Don't miss the eclipse tonight if your skies are clear

[michael granovsky]

Alright, Im going to summarize the goods and bads of the 3 candidates Im considering for a folded steel, diff. clay tempered and durability potential.

1. Hanwei Bushido, @ $590-600
+lovely saya would compliment my rebuild
+folded swedish is decent looking
+reviewed as well blanced and lively
+Hanwei is well established

-cannot confirm if there's any more than scant niku
-may be a bit overpriced due to furniture Im going to junk anyway
-frosted hamon not as artfully done as either Dynasty Forge or Munetoshi
-axe-handle tsuba will make the Lohman rebuild more expensive as it will need new tsuka core

2. Dynasty Forge f/f tri-steel, moko or horse theme, no bo-hi, @ $534 on sale at SOE
+superior looking polish, excellent looking hada, artful looking hamon, nice overall blade shape and package
+DF is well reviewed and has a good reputation for quality
+excellent price to value ratio

----SCANT niku, arrrrgh. AAARGH! Come ON guys at DF offer a model with more!

3. Munetoshi T10 Hand Forged Folded Kobuse Katana Sword Monshou

+Folded t-10 steel in kobuse hard to find/rare, especially in this price range
+++moderate niku for heavier/harder targets
+attractive looking hamon, more attractive looking than Bushido anyway

-Munetoshi review, especially for this model, difficult to find. Not a lot of feedback out there about this on the user end.
-Munetoshi has not nearly established the reputation Hanwei and DF enjoy, and may fairly or unfairly being lumped in with the RyanSwords/Can Chop Iron crap of this world
-Polish is quite poor looking, even on website photos. I suppose this may be considered a plus for honesty
-Cheep/poor looking fittings. Nylon tsuka-ito. This doesnt matter to me because Ill remount it. Could this be consider a plus as a cut corner to help keep down the price of a nicer blade?
-since theres no reviews out there I cant be sure it wont rattle in the saya which is a huge turnoff for me

Ill make my decision in a few days, right now DF is winning because of the sale...

BTW Glen help!! How do I disable overtype mode? Overtype mode makes it impossible to edit things.

[Glen C.]

Hi Michael,

I am not sure what you mean by overtype but if you are seeing a fat cursor instead of a thin one, toggle with the insert button of your keyboard. That is just to the rigt of the backspace button.

[Luis G.]

I personally would not touch Munetoshi, I am afraid while their blades look great they simply are not on par with fittings/blades from KC, or DF.

Their fittings are not very good at all in my own opinion and don't look very different from the reproductions found on ebay.

If you're dead set on buying a forge folded then you should increase you're $600 budget to at least $900+ to ensure the fittings/blade quality will not let you down.

Personally with a budget of $600 I would go for used Bugei (may or may not find them this cheap), or a KC 5160 katana (not folded but very nice).

[M. Phan]

@Michael: Dynasty Forge tri-steel for $534? That is a good deal. Unless you are going to cut bamboo, why bother with anything else?

@Luis: I think SwordNArmory/Munetoshi has bad marketing strategy. Their site looks cheesy and they sell SLO alongside real sword. The fittings are steel however, not zinc alloy. It is powdered coated blacken steel, so the paint finish is texture and not very attractive -- at least on the Enkai.

[Chris Roberts]

In the interest of putting out a bit more information about Munetoshi, I will convey my single experience with the Nisshoku, but since mine is an earlier model of unfolded monosteel and at the $300 price point, it may not be reflective of their entire sword line or more recent offerings. Disassembly was difficult due to burrs around the mekugi-ana and the tsuka core seems like a 'one size fits all' type of inlet that was crammed onto the nakago. On the blade itself, the hamachi and munemachi do not line up, the hamachi being higher on the blade and when assembled rests atop, rather than inside, the one-size-fits-all habaki, which, of course, does not have a machigane. I realize that these features tend to be typical on Chinese-made katana-like swords at this and lower price points, and of themselves may not disqualify them as collectible art objects or interesting overpriced machetes, but they assured that this one sword would be the only one I would attempt to own from Munetoshi or any other brand that etches a logo on the habaki.