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Thread: "Antique" targe for your purusal.

  1. #1
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    "Antique" targe for your purusal.

    Very rare c1822 Pre Victorian Scottish Targe shield?

    Yet another "Antique" targe for your perusal. Lots of $$$$$ for this one!

    http://www.historicalarmsandarmor.com/european.html

    httpwww.historicalarmsandarmor.comeuropean_0021.ht ml

    I personally don't think it's as old as they say nor all that 'rare' either.

    Looks rather moist and a just a little "too old". The wear is just a little too uniform, like a person purposefully took steel wool or an abrasive to the high spots to add age. Those are modern machine made carpet-upholstery tacks holding the small strips of leather edging in place on the back side. And no rust to speak of on those steel nails used to hold the brass domes in place. With close contact with the raw sort of leather used one would expect to see some rust. Not just that same black brown waxy patina that is surprisingly uniform over the whole of the 'artefact".
    Funny, lots of high lighted wear on the small low lying tacks but none to speak of on the large brass domes? Plus, they have used deer hide, hair inside. No age where one should expect to look for it and lots where there should not be.
    I could go on for hours.....


    A lot of bra$$ for a very late 'interpretaion'.

  2. #2
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    Here is another. Say I have a thought. If you find any "antique" targes just bang them up here and lets discuss them!

    Here is the latest: http://www.antiqueswords.com/product...rge-Shield.htm

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    Good ones. What not to look for and what to look for.
    "Do not suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberty by any pretences of politeness, delicacy or decency.
    These, as they are often used, are but three names for hypocrisy, chicanery, and cowardice.” John Adams, 1789

    "Everything the enemy least expects will succeed the best."

    Frederick the Great 1747

  4. #4
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    A few more: http: Most definitely Victorian.

    http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...-targe-c-1800s




    This one I would not mind seeing the rear of. Looks like the boss unscrews.
    It's too bad the photo is so small. Anyone know littleanthony? It looks like there is some warping on the right side.

    http://www.icollector.com/Early-roun...ttish_i9926648

  5. #5

    Cool

    I have made a copy of the targe "Early round targe/shield" and it looks great. Although they have not put a specific date on this targe I suspect in the area of 1715. The design does look sound for the period.

  6. #6
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    Soooo Ed, tell us all you know about the "Early round targe/shield". Where is it from and any provenance you might have found for it. You must have photos from some other sources that you worked from. Can you post some of pictures of the original targe? what leads you to believe it is circa 1715?

    Oh questions, questions questions. Always questions. What's with all the questions? you ask. "Why good science is based on sound research and documentation" he said. “Documented methods” enable the original researchers and others to reproduce the results by the same techniques or alternative approaches, to check for possible errors such as inaccurate calculations, and to detect unexplained influences or systematic biases in the observations . Well documented methods are essential to validate data, to provide in depth review by one's peers, and to credit the individuals who did the work." as he pauses for breath..............

    “Leading to verifiable results and conclusions” means that the conclusions are directly supported by the research and can be independently validated by others, in other museums or observational settings, using the same or other methods. While researchers can comment freely on the significance of their work beyond the scope of their studies, they must be careful to distinguish their speculations from conclusions. Perhaps the most common means of verification used today is peer review of research results in manuscripts submitted to professional journals for publication. Research advisory boards and expert panels (forums) are other common mechanisms used to verify studies or bodies of information." he said before he passed out on the floor.


    Yes we need pictures, what is a long-winded dissertation without pictures?
    Boring I say....bl**dy boring! What's on the other channel....ahhhh not hockey again! Ed, I don't want to watch hockey, please post some pictures?

  7. #7
    With access to at least 300 targe designs I can deduct from them the approx. period a targe is from. Having also viewed many targes at source in Scotland and England it gives me a considerable library for research. Photographs are not real proof of a targe's authenticity as they can be altered..Photoshop etc. My contact with targe research has covered the period from 1972.
    You are correct Larry, hockey is not only boring it sucks.

  8. #8
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    Targe of John Roy Stuart 1745 found in the rafters of the Ruthven Barracks.
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    David Gray

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    Haaah, David the gray.....lure me out with a targe will you? Well.....thank you very much for posting it! Yes I saw that one at the Marischal Museum in Aberdeen some years back. A very nice piece indeed!

    Here is one for Mr. Ed; What is not copacetic with this one? There will be a short quiz at the end of the day.

    http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...enum=2&lang=En

    And don't we all feel sorry for the poor chap who spent $2,800.00 on it. If you don't you should! Have you no conscience man?


    Coldspurs on a Hot day;
    It was breakfast time and when the Rawlinson family broke a fast you cursed central heating and double-glazing. Aunt Florrie thrust her turkey head from it’s private orifice, which action by dint of practice and Vaseline over the years was not now too difficult. She was overcome by the vapours and withdrew into the room, one nostril clutched to her breast handkerchief. She smoothed the now greying hairs back from her temples and tucked them neatly under her flying buttresses.
    Last edited by Larry Davis; 04-01-2011 at 07:53 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by David gray View Post
    Targe of John Roy Stuart 1745 found in the rafters of the Ruthven Barracks.
    I got my targes mixed up, this did belong to Capt JRS but it was left at Lowther Hall, Clifton, Northumberland before the Clifton fight in 1745.
    David Gray

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    Here is one for Mr. Ed; What is not copacetic with this one?



    It beats me why anyone would pay that much for some leather, wood and copper. It would have to have some better history than that and i'd expect to see tooled leather and brass along with the provenence.
    David Gray

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    You are correct Larry, hockey is not only boring it sucks.[/QUOTE]

    I've seen British hockey and your right it does suck big time. It's like football you have to follow the game, know the rules and back one of the teams. Try and watch two Canadian teams play for the Stanley cup this year it starts in a few weeks. It's one of the fastest games there is with hard hits and fights. I can only assume if you don't like that kind of sport you probably don't like rugby either and you do like snooker or poker or maybe on a good day table tennis but even that might be too fast for you?
    David Gray

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    ok back to targes, here's one with leather, brass studs, brass central boss that unsrews to reveal a horn drinking cup, on the inside of the boss it's inscribed "Inverness 1716 WF".
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    David Gray

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    "I can only assume if you don't like that kind of sport you probably don't like rugby either and you do like snooker or poker or maybe on a good day table tennis but even that might be too fast for you?"

    I am rather partial to 'grenade toss' or 'find the land mine Jimmie', great for that 5 second cardio workout! Both can be played kilted or non-kilted. The rules are somewhat flexible so's anyone can play, dirks are optional.

    "It beats me why anyone would pay that much for some leather, wood and copper."

    Quite true, but not the correct answer we are looking for. You have two more, and then it is your turn to play the catcher in "grenade toss". All eyes are now on Mr. Ed, come ooooonnn down!

    Yes the 'Gwynn' targe, nice bit of work there.

    Some good picies of it here: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

    Fortune granted me two hours of hands on study with that artefact, a gorgeous targe. It has a sister, the Dunimarle targe on display at Duff House, in Banff. Joe Lindsay (the targemaker in Inverness) has made a most wonderful copy of the 'Gwynn' targe. Do check it out.

    Now where is Mr. Ed??

    Coldspurs on Hot thighs;
    What foolishness now it seemed to a woman already in the twilight of her autumn. She left Sir Henry chuckling over the obituaries in the Times and slipped away on leopardette slippered feet and drifted into the vast dusty music room where great brown spiders traced their quiet geometric impudence on the chandeliers and crouched. Ignoring this, Florrie wiped clean the piano stool with her moist lavender hankie, and seating herself at the Beckstein played a little something that had once meant a great deal to her, but now, sadly, rather arthritically…

  15. #15

    $2800 Targe

    As to the $2800 targe from the auction ...David Gray has answered it pretty well...wood, leather and copper. It does not have the usual tooled leather design but a design embossed on leather with cord/twine underneath (it could have been done with more defination). I have seen targes of similaar manufacture in the antique weapon shops in London. The copper bosses and studs are wrong they should be of brass. This is certainly not a targe from the 1715 or Culloden era more like 1820's ..Victorian. However, that been said I like the design and will probably make a copy using the correct method/materials.

  16. #16
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    JA....DAS IST RICHTIG! (bells and sirens if you please! The audience may applaud now as well).


    Congradulations Mr. McVey for noticing what sooo many others could not!

    Yes the correct answer was; They laid cording out on the board to create the 'celtic' interlace patterns under the facing material. The design was not tooled.

    Yes if one looks closely at the surface pattern, you can see the knots and overlaps of the underlying cording, and you can in places see the actual twist pattern in the cord itself!

    Spot on, excellent observations! The copper bosses and studs instead of the proper brass fittings was way too easy, though correct, was not the answer we were looking for.

    But......because you included both the correct answer, and made note of the incorrectness of the metal fittings....we shall award the much coveted, extra bonus points!

    You win the limited special edition elite, the one, the only......The MAGICAL GOLD LINDT EASTER BUNNY!

    Here we have the loverly and talented Helga to present you with it....what? She did what? Sorry....Helga ate it. You will have to make due with 15 seconds of fame. Better than a sharp stick in the eye.

    Now we promised a quiz, so here it is: What material(s) did they use to overlay the cording on the face of that targe? Take a very close look at the images. Hint, look at the decorative raised edging on the rim as well.

    I still feel sorry for the fellow that bought that piece, that's a great deal of money for a middling 19th C copy.


    I've got Hotspurs that Jingle Jangle Jingle....;
    The bulldog,now stuffed and mounted on a trolley. He has three pedals to operate his jaws, wag his tail, and cock his leg which empties the bladder. Humbert takes him walkies.

  17. #17
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    Mr smart alec larry it does say in the jingle that it's a deeply-patinead leather on the face with a seperately applied border it doesn't say the border isn't leather or is, so what is the seperatly applied border made from? I said the leather was not tooled I got all that and i still don't want your lint bunny.
    David Gray

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    Here is a 19c presentation silver and gilt targe for John Campbell 2nd Marquis of Breadalbane made by Mackay and Cunningham Edinburgh 1835
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    David Gray

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    This one was presented to Prince Charles Edward Stewart in 1740 by James 3rd Duke of Perth, with silver mounts, it was rescued from Culloden in 1746 by Jacobite Colonel Ewan MacPherson of Cluny and stayed in his family till the 20c.
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    David Gray

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    David David David, you are waaaay to serious...man you need to relaaaaxxxx.

    Go out, pick up a two-four of Molson's, put on your best Keswick Dinner Jacket, kick back and tune in Hockey Night In Canada. Do your best Don Cherry imitation. Have a cold one and relax, eh! Then head on down to Spadina and Queen and catch a set at the Horseshoe!

    You missed the direction of this particular thread, it is to discuss bogus repro targes put out as originals, or at least sold as older than they really are. And have a good time doing it. Life is much too short and too harsh to be so serious. Try starting the day with a good laugh and a smile and see if things don't turn out for the better. If one can not have a little fun, then life is going to be one big loooong miserable drag on everybody. Terminal Seriousness just brings everybody down. Do you recall those cartoons where the little fellow walks around with a dark rainy thundercloud over his head? One can be both a scholar of antiquities and possessed of a sense of humour. The two qualities are not mutually exclusive. If you find that you cannot participate in a bit of fun, then perhaps you should not subscribe to my threads.

    I for one thoroughly enjoy the absurd side of life, it's usually found on the south side of everything, bathed in the warm glow of a late afternoon sun.
    A happy tail wagging dog is optional, but if there's one around, hell, why not?

  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=Larry Davis;1137209]Here is another. Say I have a thought. If you find any "antique" targes just bang them up here and lets discuss them!

    Well excuuuuuse me it's only the bogus repros your interested in, i'll remember that in the future. So just the one last question then, one more time, what is it about the border that makes this one such a bogus reproduction?
    David Gray

  22. #22
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    They laid cording out on the board to create the 'celtic' interlace patterns under the facing material. The design was not tooled.
    I didn't buy that $2800 piece, but I was at the auction and examined it up close. Admittedly, I do not specialize in targes. But I am curious, how do we know that they didn't use cording underlay in place of tooled leather in the 19th century?

  23. #23
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    Hi Carl I've never personaly seen one with cord or ? under the leather but E Mc Vey said he saw the same in Antique shops in London earlier so they're out there. The effect is quite good and would do the job it was meant for even if the job was just hanging on the wall. A thicker leather nicely tooled would be good but if you can't afford that I would think this way would not cost so much. They had gone out of use by the 19c so they wouldn't need whatever protection the thicker leather might offer if any.
    David Gray

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