Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 200

Thread: Early Ames And Other's Militia NCO Patterns

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    Would you like some photos of pre and post ACW shield swords?
    I suppose we might as well add them here. I know some were Ames and we see other types that would be good in the end for comparison.

    That Justice piece was catching my eye but I tend to bow out of a lot of auctions because it is a matter of (mostly) cost but also just saving images of interesting/different pieces. There are a few more up just today of seldom seen and new to me examples.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; other odds and ends of expenses have more than used up the annual budget

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688

    Pre and Post ACW shield type NCO swords

    Here are some examples. The earlier has a thicker, wider and shorter blade and heavier hilt. Compared with the all around lighter post ACW versions. When you put them next to each other, the difference is obvious.
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by T. Graham; 10-25-2011 at 07:03 AM.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Thanks for the side by side comparisons. These are different manufacturers as well aren't they?

    The heavy guard continues to show up late in production and even shown on the late Ames catalog pictures. My speculation on the federal shields goes back to the ACW timeline. That in that it would be a reason to distinguish production. A wartime image of one of these with the shield with stars would be telling to me.

    There is currently a listing of one of the heavy Ames guard castings with the shield bearing stars and it has a cut down long ricasso diamond cross section blade. In that instance, the blade especially looking to be post war. I just can't get a handle on any information definitely showing the shield with stars as pre war. There were certainly various examples with the wider blades past the war period, so I would agree (obviously) that we see the wider blade on those guards but not as being produced that way before the war. Compare the grip on my 26" bladed heavy guard to the grip of the shield example I show here and also comparative to the long spadroon bladed example with the group as later grip evolution.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; what I am seeing with all the heavy Ames stars and shield examples are a much more barreled handle compared to the other/older fat carved grip examples (non of the fat grip I have found show the shield and stars) My hypothesis might be that the barreled grips are an effect of new machines that also parallel the war time industry
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by Glen C.; 10-25-2011 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688

    More NCOs

    With out any marks Ames has to be the maker by default.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Posts
    320

    Not often seen

    I had hoped to pick this sword off. Alas, it was not to be! The scabbard craftmanship has that early quality and detail. The blade is also mottoed heavily. Nice early 1831. Well, there will be others. Prices should be coming down in this economy...not going up! Very distinct bowtie guard.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by Simon R.; 10-31-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688

    Justice

    Here is the Justice NCO sword recently on eBay. Anyone care to speculate who made it.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by T. Graham; 11-01-2011 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Hi Tim

    The Justice piece was an interesting draw on the market and because of Justice as the one marking it, kind of points out some of his war time contracts for muskets and bayonets. The guard is pretty crude and although there may be an Ames pommel and possibly blade, I don't think Ames put it together. The shield guard also kind of goes where my thoughts are that the use of the federal shields on guards does not go pre ACW but rather came along with the war and following.

    Looking at some of the Philip Justice background, his own business was registered in 1856, after leaving the family hardware business. Where does that lead us? Back to the Phialdelphia crowd itself with Justice listed as a railroad/way supplier and insurance director in 1861 directories. Certainly he had associates in foundries and the guard looks coarsely cast enough to have been a quicky war time project.

    Some thoughts I am gathering and adding to Philly poking around are being drawn from regard to the muskets
    http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...TABASE=objects,

    http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/re...4237#msg-14237

    There is obviously more to be drawn from riffling through old directories. This one from 1862 still listing him as a railway supplier but evidently the company remained into the 20th century.
    http://www.archive.org/stream/mcelro...2amce_djvu.txt

    Horstmann actually had quite a bit of manufacturing space but I don't see this one coming from their direction either. I may be wildly mistaken.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; the spiral grip also seems to be something we see on some other basic militia types after the war

    Edit to add some more Horstmann and Philadelphia info which I had posted not long ago in the collectors tips thread above

    An interesting abstract from 1875 for the William H. Horstmann manufactory.

    http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/ce...horstmann.html

    The root of the site may also be useful for other research of Philadelphia.

    http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/index.html

    Interesting stuff and all these companies deserve a dedicated discussion of each rather than piecemeal because the thread topic itself may be no draw at all for some with more to contribute. Hence this Ames thread that has branched off to abstracts about the other suppliers/makers.
    Last edited by Glen C.; 11-05-2011 at 11:50 AM.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Did anyone here adopt the etched one recently wandering through? A standard mid century Ames type with the plain shield and 26" blade but with a fraternal looking etch. I guess it might have been a memento mori as well but it seems more masonic or odd fellowish. I didn't spend a lot of time looking at what looks like a cornucopia or horn crossed with a hammer and the outward facing palm (which could be Hiberian Ulsterish as well I guess). A lodge Tyler's sword mebbe, as not named. The quartered arms etch is interesting.





    A bright clean one that went for less than a great many still circulating. My racks are full though and my budget gone for now but I do still harvest pictorial examples.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I still have to feel that looking is almost as much fun
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688
    It went cheap, so I got it. I will give a close look over and report back. How do you lift photos off eBay?

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Hi Tim,

    I had a hunch you were in that bid pack and I'm glad it went low for you. I look forward to your thoughts on it.

    The process of culling the images can be done a couple of ways. I am currently using a browser called Opera, that allows a way to easily source (open a page displaying all the html coding) a whole page and then cut&paste the image urls placing one at a time in a separate tab/window. That is pretty tedious work but there is also an option in Opera to elect a different view (user vs author) and that enables me to kind of work around the view/javascript. That also involves a couple of extra steps for each image but is worth the effort for posterity.

    Other methods also require an extra step such as print view previews and screenshots via additional software. These software bundles are often included in scanner and camera packages and discs.

    Then there are the gracious sellers that make it a bit easier. I try to make it clear that when I share the images that they are posted for educational use and in no way to misrepresent an item Say if I was going to publish a bok or hard article, attributing the photographers and owners might need to go through copyright processes.

    The screenshot method is sometimes the most straightforward but my own software for that means another step just like fooling a page with the Opera browsers. I receive no gratuities for pumping Opera as a browser but I have enjoyed its versatilities a great deal while really hating some of the other options including Google's Chrome and Firefox, etc. If I were on broadband, I would also be using an Opera add on called Dragonfly which can extract the images even more easily and seamlessly.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Opera is infinitely tunable to present a view pleasing just about anyone
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas City Metro (USA)
    Posts
    1,684
    Right click your mouse on the picture and select save picture as... to download it to your computer.
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Hi George

    Ebay has disabled the right click for browsers I am familiar with. That has been for some months now. What browser are you using?

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Hi George

    Ebay has disabled the right click for browsers I am familiar with. That has been for some months now. What browser are you using?
    Weird (I am anyway ) I guess MSN and IE (and others) work just fine with the right click.

    I will now go back to other browsers to harvest

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,113
    This militia type sword thread is great--I have always found these interesting. Thanks, guys, for posting your information and photos here!

    Question: with these swords is the blade configuration a good general indicator of period--apart from hilt styles? Would wider, oval blades indicate an older sword than a diamond shaped blade?
    Last edited by T. Donoho; 11-27-2011 at 10:18 AM.
    Tom Donoho

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Oh absolutely Tom. There are still lenticular/ovoid blades into the twentieth century though, so there are some other trends that are shown in the hilts and grips. I may feel I am a little at odds with some being listed as pre Civil War but there are some definite traits that do show a progression following a rough guide of the timeline. Blade width as well a real indicator. My little toy eagle sabre and flying eagle pommel are quite late and have very slight narrow blades.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; considering the general form of the roman helmet swords lasted a century even without considering the fraternal swords, they had a pretty good run as somewhat iconic
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688

    Early lodge/NCO sword

    I received the above sword and it is really neat. The seller thinks the etching is Knights of Pythias and/or Odd Fellows. The K of P was formed in 1864 and the IOOF in 1819. I will leave precise speculation as to what lodge it was made for to others. My particular interest is that it may have a cross over NCO function, since I am convinced this happened. It is in unused condition, so it was unlikely to have been carried in the field.

    Pictures 1 & 2 are looking down into the cross guard; there is no opening going into the quillion. Horstmann swords of this type have hollow quillions because the cross guard was two mirror castings brazed together. This guard is a one piece casting. Do I need to go into sand casting theory? I have photos of two piece Horstmann hilts if anyone is interested. Therefore, I will pontificate that this sword was likely/possibly/maybe made buy Ames Mfg. Co., but I could be wrong. My wife, thinks I am wrong quite often. I will not take this one apart to find any markings on the blade tang.

    Picture 3 show an "escutcheon" supported by cherubs. One very interesting decoration not shown in the above photos is the "Arc of the Covenant" on photo 4 & 5.

    I will make a scabbard for it in the near future.



    .
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    I'm glad to see that etched one land in an extended family. There have been some more interesting variants turning up too but here is one I ran across in my eaglehead pommel files while looking for something else in my unsorted in folder. Slowly but surely working on a few thousand eaglehead images.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I assume this one to be an Ames, for its overall characteristics
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688
    Cool. Do you know anything else about it? I take it that you do not own it. That is my kind of sword. It seems that there are too many my kind of swords. I am a sick puppy.
    Could you email me larger photos of it?

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Hi Tim

    No I don't have any other information on this eagle and unfortunately the only three shots I saved. I will look on another drive to check but I'm pretty sure it was a few years ago and before I had really started looking at these chunky guard Ames patterns. In the back of my mind there is something like this in the Hamilton book but it may have been mentioned elsewhere. I think at the time I was harvesting it more as an eagle instead of considering the Ames or militia types

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I wouldn't be surprised to see one again, as the market seems to turn up the obscure ones

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hudson OH
    Posts
    688

    Another Pre American Civil War NCO sword

    According to Bezdek's American Swords and Sword MakersThis _orstman_ Bros & Co. NCO sword was made from 1850-1851. This is the first urn type pommel I have seen. But, is it a Greek Urn? You may ask, what's a Greek urn? Answer: about 8 bucks an hour. I am still looking for an NCO sword hilt with a henway.
    By taking this sword apart I learned; who had it made and when. The quillions are solid so I think, Ames was the manufacturer.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by T. Graham; 12-27-2011 at 11:06 PM.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Well that is interesting. Was this one from the auction two weeks ago? There is another one up now that is similar/the same. Looks like Ames fittings to me, considering the continuing collaboration between them.. Steven's example he is listing as possibly a German ethnic militia troop/group but my thoughts were/are that it might be poor men's engineer swords (See Peterson 127,128 and the later possible uses of the form). Militia engineers?

    Consider me generally baffled in general about this one but I am watching the new listing. As we see two, we know now there must be more It has been awhile since more of the real short ones have turned up as well. I was figuring the current listing must have been a turn around but it looks like it is otherwise.

    There was another spadroon bladed Ames type chunky hilt with a 26" musician length blade instead of the 32" bladed one I picked up before. Yet another seen recently with a leather and twisted wire with the old heavy guard look.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; dis-assembled!!!! Oh NOooooo!
    Last edited by Glen C.; 12-27-2011 at 11:34 PM.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    Peterson is as well at odds with listing Brothers&Co. With the old man dying in 1859 We still see Horstmann&Sons turning up during the war years. Then you have the New York stamp on this as well.

    Shouldn't the time line you mention from Bezdek be Horstmann&Sons or Horstmann Sons&Co.?

    Me puzzled?????

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    So, I was riffling through folders looking for a file I haven't found again (yet) of a scabbard with the Ames scroll background by with the Horstmann lettering on it (as opposed to what we see on the back of other Horstmann scabbards). It is there somewhere hiding, My own filing system is a bit haphazard with get them now and sort, then annotate them as I build posts for threads such as this.

    Anyway, what I did find hiding in an obvious Peterson folder were some more urns. This first one you will recognize because of the pommel. These shots were on the Carolina Collectors site and a couple, three years ago before I was even really digging at this topic.

    The hilt on this one is very Widmann and maybe during the transition. With that said, the pommels probably stayed with the Horstmann company. Or, a Widmann shop transitional piece but the mad man himself usually had some sort of signature. This one just a Weyersburg marked blade and Horstmann & Sons with Philly on the obverse.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; stay tuned for a couple of more of the urns
    Attached Images Attached Images     
    Last edited by Glen C.; 12-28-2011 at 08:56 AM.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    So now then Tim. Having seen your's surface and with my mentioning that where there are two, there must be more. Here is another sibling that I had plonked into a file back when (old drive to the new one? I don't ken when but awhile ago)? I don't think it is your's or the one currently in flux, so it means another indeed. I have just the two shots of this one as back then I was just saving top knots (as I often do with eagle pommel variations files as handles and blades are often the same dealio). Properties show it was on the old drive before the stroke.

    One more quite different but possibly associated urn. These we have shown so far may indeed go back to the engineer regulation as outlined in Peterson. We know now though that a lot of Peterson's examples are not as indicated.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,163
    This one is a bit different and has all the marks of being post war but is it? I dunno. I know I saved it back then on the old drive and put it in the militia folder. One more knight vs ancient Rome at some point but I need to line up all the different helmets in line at some point (picture collection not physically).

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I really do need to rename a lot of stuff I harvest, as the random numbers for Ebay pictures are haphazrd for filing
    Attached Images Attached Images      

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •