Screaming (so called Ames) Eagle

[Richard Schenk]

OK, someone else suggested it was War of 1812 and French made, but the lack of maker puts me off...It does have the Medusa, so one presumes it is French made.

Dale

With no disrespect to the folks at Land and Sea, I believe War of 1812 quite unlikely - as Eric points out, this appears to be a sword made in compliance with the Regulations of 1821 and probably dates from the 1820s. I don't know why so many folks insist that any American sword with a stirup or reverse-P grip is War of 1812 - probably just marketing. I believe the Medusa motif was also used by non-French makers, but that being said, I agree your sword appears French and probably SH&F.

[Dale Martin]

Richard: I agree, just marketing their items. I looked carefully under the obverse langet, and in Italic Script, "SH&F"....It is impossible to get a good shot if this, but after much looking with a magnifier, it is apparent. I think we have an 1821 Militia Infantry Officers' Sword.

Dale

[Eric Fairbanks]

Dale I cannot say for sure, I am going by grip groove design, angry eagle and ofcourse as you say the snake head gal. Eric

[Richard Schenk]

Does anyone have any thoughts on my main question, i.e. did the Ames eagles have any official status? If they were not actually a formal regulation model, were they at least recognized as official patterns by Army Ordinance?

[Glen C.]

Does anyone have any thoughts on my main question, i.e. did the Ames eagles have any official status? If they were not actually a formal regulation model, were they at least recognized as official patterns by Army Ordinance?

I know nothing more than what is presented in Hamilton's book. In face to face discussion with a dealer at the Hartford Show eight years ago, I asked the very same questions about Hamilton's thoughts. That fellow had a primo silver plate spadroon. He mentioned Mike Silvey as someone that might have better information but I have never approached Silvey, nor know a contact.

Thillmann, however, tells us the M1832/4 General and Staff Officers sword with leather scabbard was intended for all officers of the infantry, artillery, and ordinance. He doesn't even mention the Ames eagle heads.

No disrespect meant but he probably doesn't mention them (and I may be snarky when I say he knows nothing) because he knows little about eagles in general.

The Shiloh piece is another case of Rafael being a bit confused (God bless). However everything about the sword except the pommel may well be correct, including the ovoid Chicopee marked blade in a five ball hilt. Ames did a lot of special orders. Only the mad doctor creating that Frankensword knows for sure. There is a crazy Ames blade assembly on Ebay as well. 182209354663

I had posted about my post 1840 Ames screamer some time ago. A late stopped fuller and blade etched to what is typical of that decade's etching. Not marked to Ames but undeniably so.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ommel-Spadroon

Dale, The sword you attached is not French made but we do see that langet on some French type swords. I have seen a number of Helvig swords destined for the French market, which may seem contrary. My question would be if Helvig was based in Alsace vs Solingen. Maybe politics and trade mellowed out for a bit after the First Empire of Napoleon.

Cheers

Hotspur; Hamilton was around and posting sometimes at the Antiqueguns.com phorum along with Furr but that board appears to be long gone like a turkey through the corn

[Richard Schenk]

Glen,

- Thanks for the feedback. If anyone knows Hamilton or how to contact him, it would be good to ask him about this topic. I'm surprised there apparently hasn't been much discussion on what could be a rather important point.

- I had seen that odd Ames blade assembly that you mentioned on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-AMERICAN-...oAAOSwgmJX1Hdc). The blade seems to be from a M1832/4 General and Staff Officer sword, the hilt from a militia reverse-P artillery sword. A nice looking piece, but I don't think Ames is likely to have made such a pairing. I don't know if I've ever seen an Ames reverse-P hilt.

- Ref Glen's SH&F sword, I guess whether you consider it French or not depends on whether you consider Alsace Germany or France. I believe it was under French administration during the period this sword was made, so I said French. It's nothing about which I would fall on my proverbial sword however.

Dick

[Eric Fairbanks]

Richard you forever keep me wondering, looking and reading for more information and sadly too much information is missing on early American swords. Regards Eric

[Richard Schenk]

I had seen that odd Ames blade assembly that you mentioned on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-AMERICAN-...oAAOSwgmJX1Hdc). The blade seems to be from a M1832/4 General and Staff Officer sword, the hilt from a militia reverse-P artillery sword. A nice looking piece, but I don't think Ames is likely to have made such a pairing. I don't know if I've ever seen an Ames reverse-P hilt.

Off topic again, but I just noticed the seller with the odd Ames with the reverse-P hilt has another sword, an artillery saber, with a virtually identical reverse-P hilt. If I had a suspicious mind, I might find them too similar. Not really though - actually,there are a number of differences, but they sure are similar. I also note the etching on the Klingenthal-made blade of the artillery saber looks rather late for the hilt style - rather like a French-made M1850 S&F blade. The last photo is froma non-regulation Klingenthal M1850 S&F blade.

[Richard Schenk]

What is going on here? - I'm seeing a number of reverse-P hilts like those in the above post with blades which appear to be from other model swords. Are these period hybrids or re-hiltings, or, which I think more likely, composites put together in modern times for the collectors market? If the latter, are the hilts genuine old hilts, or are they modern repros from India or China?

[Eric Fairbanks]

Richard the one on the m1850 infantry officer is no doubt an original. It is a style I have noticed most offten on Solingen made blades. The other one I also do not doubt but do not reconize its particular style. While the bird head pommel, knuckle guard and quillion are common enough the reinforcement fillet where the knuckle guard meets the counter guard is not one I am familiar with. Both swords display new wrap and wire seldom seen on this type period hanger. The front ferrule or band also is the wide flat American style and I suspect new as I would think both of these should have the more rounded ring look. I think someone quite talented is trying to make a little money. This is the 5th or 6th I have seen in a year or so. Regards Eric

[Eric Fairbanks]

The plot thickens.

[Glen C.]

Nice. Do you have any more pictures? I am assuming it is a sabre. This one reminds me of one I had seen a decade ago. Stirrup hilt with counterguard and ring and iirc, the first time I had disputed it as early but hey, what do I know anyway. It may well be the missing link to claim provenance for the form. I have to mention again that Mowbray steered well clear from it in his old testament.

What does it show in the counterguard? I have a plain spadroon in files with the diamond that was ballparked by some as 1830s but that one had the early traits as well.. I'll dig it out of the file pile tomorrow.

[Eric Fairbanks]

Glen, it is a spadroon. I sent you an email with photos. Eric

[Glen C.]

Troublemaker Email and some other photos back at you That spadroon I mentioned and another posted below.

I am negotiating a different type of crested eagle but that may not pan out. No doubt someone else may make the deal first. Not a screamer but it may end up as a screaming deal. They don't want to hear wholesale prices but we are moving in the right direction.

Cheers

Hotspur; The bearded screamers yet another variation and I sent an example labeled as Amish (tongue is cheek, not meant as offensive)

Let me know if these four pictures show?

[Eric Fairbanks]

Is that bird head spadroon yours? What a beauty. I love those and not real common. Is that a Snake in the beak of that eagle on the Langet on the screamer? If it is another sword on my list. Can you give a date range for the diamond guard stirrup hilts? Eric
Good luck on the new find.

[Glen C.]

Is that bird head spadroon yours? What a beauty. I love those and not real common. Is that a Snake in the beak of that eagle on the Langet on the screamer? If it is another sword on my list. Can you give a date range for the diamond guard stirrup hilts? Eric
Good luck on the new find.

A SSSssssnake? Let me post a couple more from that set. I think you may be right! a Mexican Amish! It may actually be an Ames?

The other spadroon one I might have had but chose something else at the time. That one had been at Shiloh Relics many years ago.






Both of those from my old spadroon folder. There is another Mexican blade etched spadroon in there that Harvey Withers used to have.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...DQ?usp=sharing

Cheers

Hotspur; I've come to the conclusion that I may have just about reached my own limit in wanting to save every image I come across. I frequently have a dozen eagle pommels alone waiting to archive. Time to condense

[Glen C.]

As to the diamond in the counterguard; Like I wrote in email, some felt that spadroon I posted above is post war of 1812. It is quite similar/appropriate for the British naval spadroons of the early 19th century.

On the other hand, my Thurkle sabre and Wooley hussar hilt spadroon with diamonds date better to the 1790s. One thing for sure, it was not just one maker or cutler/furbisher. There are a few circle insets in my files as well.

And on we go```````````````````````......................... ..>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Eric Fairbanks]

Here is yet another British Screamer on the usual site. While the guard style was used well into the 1830s the blade typically was not. Certainly an early blade although it proves nothing as trading and old stock use was common. The shear number of these British screamers with old style blades and old style hilts still causes me pause in late attribution. The theory based solely on Ames in news paper article crying foul. There are no marked swords to prove otherwise and nothing other than the consistent use of old parts to lead someones mind in a different direction. Some British Screamers can be easily dated after Ames screamers but not all. This one as I said on the usual site. 202058545471

[Eric Fairbanks]

British Screaming eagle. This is one of mine and deserves the late attribution based on mix of needle and white etch.

[Eric Fairbanks]

This is a very late British type Screamer. Note the wagon wheel carving on bone grip a style sometimes used by Ames. I would date this on after 1840.

[Eric Fairbanks]

These Ames eagles all have later blade and etch styles.

[Eric Fairbanks]

The plot thickens.

Replacement of photobucket photo.

[Glen C.]

My curio to report for the year would have to be the Spies like hilt on a screamer listed as Ames and has been on ebay for months and months. Other Ames listing oddities that have been giving me cramps are roman pommeled militia swords with German ferrules, listed as Ames.

A nice barrage of images there Eric and perhaps somewhat of a progression for the curious to ponder on. Aside from the stopped fuller late Ames marked blades, the other dating tool are the pages in Hamilton's history showing the plates of blade etching.

As with Horstmann using Ames parts, I've little doubt there were others.

Cheers

GC

[Eric Fairbanks]

For every thing I find that leads me to believe the British( or possibly German) screamers are older I find things that say they are not. I cannot make up my mind nor get them out of my head.

[Glen C.]

The old parallel universe conundrum.

The mixed etch panels also arguably earlier but I believe many will regard them post 1820, especially when we regard elements that are not unique to eagle pommels alone. The surplus of old blades being re-purposed fairly obvious by the time we get to the Wolfe and Spies marked swords appearing and Spies marked swords lasting past the Mexican war period (imo, into the 1850s).

I still stand by my observations and by the old newspaper article mentioning Ames ire of the English imports. Certainly that can be shown by more than just the eagle pommel gapers that mimic Ames styling.

Post up what you see as German furbished screaming eagles. I have a Berger marked Ketland type eagle in files but no German screamers that show any B&G evidence of even being German in blade alone. An edit and addendum, I have never encountered a screamer that was not etched in one fashion or another, which is why I am pretty sure you aren't going to find a German furbished example.

My one screamer here not marked by Ames, has a gilt instead of a silver wash and a late blade. The blade etch as described and shown at the link previously posted.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ommel-Spadroon

For some reason, I have never doubted why Mowbray never claimed them in his English Import section. It is not like there were not droves of all variations of the screamers when he had the "bible" published.

Cheers

GC