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Thread: Need help with ID and age approximation with Mexican?? sword

  1. #1

    Need help with ID and age approximation with Mexican?? sword

    Hello,

    I would like help from the SFI community. I believe this is an antique Mexican sword. Although I am not sure as to the age. The images on the blade are basically the same on both sides. There is a makers mark showing a helmet with a sword. On the other side are the numbers 336. I could not find any other markings. The sword guard may or may not have had colored stones for the eyes. I think it could be from the Civil War era, but I really don't know... So any input would be greatly appreciated.

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    Last edited by B. Sawtelle; 11-01-2015 at 02:48 PM.

  2. #2
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    As a blacksmith, I love the treatment of the eagle and snake hilt! Nicely done.
    Retired civil servant, part time blacksmith, seasonal Viking ship captain.

  3. #3
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    The helmet IIRC belongs to a Paris cutler (or was it Belgian?) who used to make Mexican regulation models marked as made in Toledo. begininnings XXth century. The hilt could be locally made.

    I think there is some writing with it.

    PS:


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    Last edited by Javier Ramos; 11-01-2015 at 03:52 PM.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

  4. #4
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    scabbard certainly looks non-military. As Javier suggests, perhaps a locally made hilt mated to a regulation blade. Tourist item, maybe?
    mark@swordforum.com

    ~ Hostem Hastarum Cuspidibus Salutemus ~

    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't."
    Benjamin Franklin

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Hi,

    The marking on the blade is in fact very similar (if not a downright copy) to that of Luneschloss of Solingen:

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    However I think Javier is right and the marking is from that French maker whose name we don't remember... who copied who? I really don't know.

    Anyway, interesting hilt. Many of these Mexican local hilts are quite crude, but this one shows good skills in ironwork. And good taste. The blade, according to the short length and general configuration, has some naval flavour to me... what do you think?

    JJ
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

  6. #6
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    The logo on the blade is that of Francois Delacour & Bakes of Paris. They made a lot of quality swords for the US during the CW era. I doubt very much they made the hilt, however - not at all their style. Suspect the hilt and scabbard are local products mated with the French blade.

  7. #7
    Hello,

    I examined the sword closer and could indeed make out the initials F D and B! Thank you for the spot on identification. Any ideas if it would be from Union or Confederacy usage?

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    This would not be either Union or CSA. The eagle etched on the blade (photo 2) is a Mexican national eagle perched on a cactus holding a snake. This blade was clearly made for the Mexican market. I'm not familiar enough with Mexican swords to estimate the date, but perhaps another member can help.

  9. #9
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    Late Mexican swords are not something I pay a lot of attention too but in looking at earlier swords I do run into them. The Francois Delacour & Bakes of Paris blade is one I don't know but if you can believe the internet and knowing they did sell CW swords the blade must be 1860 to 1885. The only problem with that for me is the etching looks "laser etched". The eagle looks 1930 to the 60's. The previous style had more of a bird look and was less stylized. Most I have seen In this or similar styles are brass or aluminum. The steel hilt bird with the snake guard is a new one for me. Must be a police or cadet school sword.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  10. #10
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    It is dated 1902 and the etching looks like a transfer resist.

  11. #11
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    I believe the date is on Javier's sword, not the Sawtelle's one in question. I wonder, however, about Javier's sword. It has the FD&B maker's logo, but the etching then states if was made in Toledo in 1902. Seems to be a serious disconnect. Did some firm in Toledo, Spain buy un-etched blades from France and apply their own etching before selling them on the Mexican market?

  12. #12
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    No, it is easier. Some German and French makers put "Toledo" on their blades to sell on the Central and South American market. It was simply a case of misrepresentation, a plain fraud to improve their sales...

    Juan J.
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

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