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Thread: Patent tang 2

  1. #1
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    Patent tang 2

    Hi all,

    This is the second of my recent 2 patent tang acquisitions.

    Although it's in bad shape it offers the opportunity to see the naked patent tang blade.

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    The maker is possibly Reeves from the proof slug although there is no makers name on the blade.

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    I belive the single word 'Patent' dates it between mid 1850's and mid 1880's when the wording Patent Solid Tang became prevalent.

    And as well as presenting a very challenging restoration project (lack of a back strap and pommel being the most serious drawback) it also has initials and a crest to research.

    I've found some candidate's for the initials but struggling to match the crest. Any suggestions what this fellow might be? Dragon, or Wyvern was my first thought.

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    Last edited by james.elstob; 09-16-2018 at 03:28 AM.

  2. #2
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    Plate 76, crest number 1 in Fairbairn's is the closest I can find - panther with flames issuing from mouth and ears. But it isn't the same as yours and relates to the Acland, Palmer or Philips families, so I'm not sure that's going to get you anywhere with regards to the initials.

    John
    "If I can't be a good example to others, at least let me be a horrible warning".

  3. #3
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    Kind of looks like the Celtic green man.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hart View Post
    Plate 76, crest number 1 in Fairbairn's is the closest I can find - panther with flames issuing from mouth and ears. But it isn't the same as yours and relates to the Acland, Palmer or Philips families, so I'm not sure that's going to get you anywhere with regards to the initials.

    John
    Thanks for your input John,

    I've found a similar one on plate 112, number 9.

    A tiger affrontée with fire issuing from its mouth.

    Surname Giffard but I think the fire from the mouth of some sort of cat is along the right lines.

  5. #5
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    I would suggest Hobson as the surname?

  6. #6
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    Just missing the arrow:

    "A Panther's Head Affrontée And Erased, With Flames Issuant From The Mouth And Ears, Ppr., Transfixed By An Arrow Fessewise, The Pheon To The Sinister Arg., Gorged With A Collar Counter Compony Or And Az"

  7. #7
    The Herbert family of Blackwell, Derbyshire, had the panther with flames issuing from mouth and ears; but, so far, I can't find any officer surnamed Herbert with those initials on the blade.

  8. #8
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    Jordan, missing the arrow and it seems to me that the collar on my sword is just azure not Or and Az. Anyway I can find a captain Frederick G. Hobson who resigned their commission from the Herts Yeomanry Cavalry in 1875 which would likely put him in the correct time frame for the sword. I've not been able to find out much else about him.

    L.Braden, I'm afraid I can't seem to find the crest of the Herbert family you're referring to. I'll keep looking but if you can point me in the right direction, it would be appreciated.

    Thanks guys.

  9. #9
    I would suggest Hobson based on the following description of crest:

    A panther's head erased and guard. ppr. fire issuing from the mouth and ears, gorged with a collar chequy or and az.

  10. #10
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    Thanks Gordon,

    Without the arrow, that seems to be it. What is the source for that description please?

    Perhaps the tinctures of the collar omitted from the etching is not unusual.

  11. #11
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    On closer inspection of the tang it is possible that the tang has been altered meaning this hilt may not be the original.

    Gordon, are you aware of any images of other Reeves patent swords from this period (using the single word Patent)?

    I'm wondering whether it would have been pressed leather grips or something else.

    I'd also like to see the back strap and pommel arrangement.

    Ideally I'd like to somehow restore this to a sword rather than just a collection of parts.

    Regards
    Last edited by james.elstob; 09-19-2018 at 06:43 AM.

  12. #12
    You gents found him! (Never mind Herbert - can't find matching crest anyway.) Frederick George Hobson, born c. 1844; son of George Hobson of Julian's Park, Baldock, Herts; attended Eton, 1857-60; partner in Reid & Co, brewers; married Anna Maria, daughter of John Gully of Maxwell Lodge, Hants; she filed for divorce in 1885; resigned his commission as captain in the Herts Yeomanry Cavalry, 12 May 1875; died in Dec. 1899. (The Eton Register, National Archives, genealogical info, & Bulletins and Other State Intelligence.) Could find no crest for Hobson of Herts, but Burke's General Armory has the panther description for Hobson of Lincs.
    Last edited by L. Braden; 09-19-2018 at 10:48 AM. Reason: additions

  13. #13
    Additional info: According to birth and govt. records, correct spelling of first name is "Frederic". "Herts Yeomanry Cavalry. Frederic George Hobson, Gent., to be captain. 2nd August, 1871." (London Gazette.) He was born in 1844, married AM in a Catholic ceremony on 12 June 1865; they had one child, Laura Louise Hobson Baring. AM was born in 1846 and died in 1906. The Hobsons lived at Cotterred, Herts. Now, the big question is: How did that sword get into such a horrible condition?

  14. #14
    P.S. Correction: Cottered. (Misspelled in genealogical sources.)

  15. #15
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    Good info, thanks for doing the digging.

  16. #16
    Glad to be of help! Incidentally, according to records in the National Archives, FGH was not only the respondent in the divorce petition, but in 1865 he was the plaintiff in a family (?) lawsuit with his new wife (!) as one of six defendants (Robert Hobson, James Frederick Hall and wife Elizabeth Jane, Capt. Saint Pierre Butler Hook, and William Hobson Glennie).

  17. #17
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    I saw this one sell and I'm glad that someone here got it. I thought about bidding myself, but I have enough project swords already. You may know this already, but this is the work of Reeves. I've had three Reeves patent hilts and they often used that garter around the prooved slug for their best work.

    Regards,
    Matt

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Easton View Post
    You may know this already, but this is the work of Reeves. I've had three Reeves patent hilts and they often used that garter around the prooved slug for their best work.

    Regards,
    Matt
    Matt, I was by now satisfied that it was Reeves but I have struggled to find any other Reeves examples using the same 'garter'. Are any of those swords up on your website somewhere? I'd love to see images of other similarly etched Reeves examples especially if they are patent tang.

    The only other sword I've seen using a similar garter was very beautifully etched sword which from memory was an 1822 marked to William Buckmaster.

  19. #19
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    I have a Buckmaster Scottish broadsword and it has a garter around the proof slug, but it is different to this one.

  20. #20
    Hi James,

    Whist it not so east to find solid hilt swords with the garter cartouche "PATENT" that are also marked with the Reeves name, it seems that some of the swords that Reeves made for others retailers do have the garter cartouche, and amongst such retailers is Garden of Piccadilly London; Reeves identified as the maker identified by the proof mark.

    Regards,

    Gordon

  21. #21
    Sorry about the typos...Whist it's not so easy...

  22. #22
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    So I have finally come round to this project, I'm a little confused about the best way to fit this sword together and I could use some help.

    The tang is not what i would expect for a patent tang; there is nothing to peen over the tail of the guard as per the image attached diagram.

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    (apologies to the owner I can't recall where I found this diagram but I'll gladly credit or remove it, I'm sure someone here knows where it's from).

    Does anyone know how this set up would fit to a hilt? Is it missing a piece from the tang itself? Is it missing a nut or something else?

    If anyone has seen this tang profile before it would be great to see photos or diagrams so I can decide on how best to refit it.

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    Last edited by james.elstob; 03-10-2019 at 02:23 PM.

  23. #23
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    Just want to bump up this wanted advert in the classified section. It's for restoration of this sword. I need an 1821 back strap

    http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showth...-1821-or-1827p

  24. #24
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    The guard you have would not have a back strap being like the 1853p troopers sword with rectangular tang being peened over a teardrop shaped pommel. With no original grips it's hard to tell if there was a back strap or not. Some were made sans back strap. Is the guard stopped by the blade shoulders?

  25. #25
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    Will

    There are indicators to suggest that the grip may have been altered later to the 1853 style rather than starting its life that way.

    If that is the case, it presumably began life with the 1821 plus back strap (or possibly a French grip arrangement). I've decided to try to restore to the standard 1821.

    I'm out of the country right now but from memory I think the shoulder does stop the guard. I can check in a couple of days. What is your thinking behind that question?

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