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Thread: French Model An X111 Heavy Cavalry sword Rack numbers

  1. #1

    French Model An X111 Heavy Cavalry sword Rack numbers

    Anyone know when French Model An X111 Heavy Cavalry swords had rack numbers stamped on there hilts pre 1815 or post 1815 ?.

  2. #2
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    Hi Michael
    From this translated article it looks like regimental marking started around end of first empire but mainly in the restoration period. See below:

    I have this article as a pdf translated from original French which I can send if you pm me with your email

    Jerry
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  3. #3
    I had a theory Jerry that this was done post 1815 when the points were modified and the new 1816 type scabbards supplied, the sword and scabbard having matching numbers to each other ,but as I have a couple of unmodified point swords both with rack numbers so perhaps this is not the case.
    Never seen rack numbers on the rare 2nd type scabbard ?.
    Last edited by Michael.H; 12-09-2018 at 05:11 AM.

  4. #4
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    The spear points were done in 1816 but it apparently the so called 1816 scabbards were appearing in 1814 and have been picked up as Waterloo finds. I have not seen any unit markings on the scabbards, on some control poincons and often not even then. The unit markings seem to be restricted to the hilts.

  5. #5
    Yes I have heard this about the 1816 scabbard and also that some swords were spear pointed before Waterloo but I don't think there is any definitive proof of this.
    The only thing I do know is that all the Model AnX111 swords I have handled with the 1816 scabbards have had Chatellerault poincons on there scabbards making them post 1815, so the proof would be to find an 1816 scabbard with pre 1815 poincons.
    There seems to be lots of theory on this subject but no definitive proof.

  6. #6
    Hello Michael,
    I have a mint condition example made during Napoleons 100 days and the scabbard is the 1816 pattern with what looks like Imperial markings as opposed to "Royale" markings..Have had a few anx111 with rack numbers but never unit markings...I often wondered about the 1816 lyre type scabbard and when it was actually introduced but have noticed many museums and collections including the Inniskilling dragoon regimental museum have the 3rd pattern scabbard in their collections.I can only assume that from 1814 to 1815 with Napoleon being in and out of power there was a bit of turmoil and confusion at the armoury as to what to stamp on the recently made items....Regards Paul

  7. #7
    What are the markings on your scabbard like Paul ?.

    Mike

  8. #8
    Hello Michael,
    Working away at the moment,will take some photo's when home on the weekend....From memory one is on the scabbard ring bracket and the other I can remember is on the drag and is a '6' within a shield..
    Regards,
    Paul.

  9. #9
    Ok Paul check top of mouthpiece also as these scabbards are normally marked there also.

    Mike

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Cottrell View Post
    The spear points were done in 1816 but it apparently the so called 1816 scabbards were appearing in 1814 and have been picked up as Waterloo finds. I have not seen any unit markings on the scabbards, on some control poincons and often not even then. The unit markings seem to be restricted to the hilts.
    The spear points were already present at/before Waterloo, but became official in 1816.

  11. #11
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    Yes, spear points were I guess done regimentally, examples found on the field of Waterloo. The regulation regarding spear points was 1816 which is why the hatchet points are very rare.

  12. #12
    Hello Michael,
    Sorry for the delay with my reply..There are no markings on the scabbard mouth but the scabbard ring supports have a B within a shield on either side plus as said there is a 6 on the drag...The sword forms part of a 1st Empire Ensemble with the casque having a 6th cuirassiers badge on it and even though there is probably no correlation between them I've kept them together...I have tried to attach some pictures but I'm not the best at using the computer..
    Regards,
    Paul...
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  13. #13
    Fabulous display Paul.
    Looks great with 'The Charging Chasseur' above!

  14. #14
    Hello Gene,
    Thank you,it's one of the few things the wife likes as well..!
    Regards,
    Paul...

  15. #15
    Does the B mark within shield mark have a star or crown above it Paul ?.

  16. #16
    Hello Michael,
    It's a star...needed a good quality magnifying glass to see it though...
    Paul...

  17. #17
    That's F.A. BISCH Chatellerault 1844-1864 according to my information Paul.

    Mike

  18. #18
    Hello Michael,
    Thank you..Maybe the sword was reissued for the Crimea in a new scabbard or possibly the sword and the scabbard were restamped together at the arsenal...? The blade fits the scabbard like a glove and holds it in place securely. I know it must have been reissued at some point post it's manufacture date of 1815 because of the restamps on the hilt....The leather has a lovely patina to it with the correct amount of turns for Imperial not Royal issue and original grip wire holding it firm is original..I always found it interesting because it was made during Napoleons 100 days....Maybe one of the last not to have Royale on the blade...!
    Regards,
    Paul..

  19. #19
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    Hi Michael,

    I've come to the (same) conclusion that the rack numbering has something to do with the introduction of the 1816 scabbard. I searched the archives of Bertrand Malvaux and other dealers for An XI / An XIII cuirassier and dragon sabers, and also the current sabres for sale.

    In total I found 73 sabres with 56 scabbards (dragon sabres don't have a metal scabbard). 50 sabres had hilt numbers.

    From the following tables it will become clear that a majority of sabres with 1816 scabbards have hilt numbers. The same goes for spear pointed sabres.
    No swords in An XI scabbards have hilt numbers.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  20. #20
    Yes DirkS I also found out a while ago from a French forum that all troopers weapons swords.bayonets,guns etc were numbered from the 1820's.
    So interestingly looking at your chart and two of my hatchet pointed An XIII swords which are numbered the French still had swords with unmodified points in the 1820's ?.
    Last edited by Michael.H; 10-01-2019 at 08:54 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael.H View Post
    Yes DirkS I also found out a while ago from a French forum that all troopers weapons swords.bayonets,guns etc were numbered from the 1820's.
    So interestingly looking at your chart and two of my hatchet pointed An XIII swords which are numbered the French still had swords with unmodified points in the 1820's ?.
    Yes, interesting and that’s probably why in 1854/1855 the official edict came that ordered to finally convert the remaining An XIII sabres to spear point.
    Before that date probably it was recommended, but maybe old troopers who remembered riding with Napoleon preferred to keep the old fashioned hatchet point.


    Neither my old An XI sabre de dragon with hatchet point nor An IX sabre de cavalerie légère (both Mfture Nationale du Klingenthal) show rack numbers. My sabre de cavalerie légère 1822 (Klingenthal 1828) has hilt and scabbard numbers.
    Last edited by DirkS; 10-02-2019 at 01:15 AM.

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