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Thread: Hawkes Moseley &.....??

  1. #1
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    Hawkes Moseley &.....??

    Hi all

    I've just acquired an 1821 quill point LC in fantastic condition with a mirror finish blade and leather covered scabbard ascribed to Hawkes Moseley & Sons.

    Although I've seen the "& Sons" used before on other items all references I can find to the company refer to the official name as being "& Co"

    I've read that after Hawkes' death, Thomas Walker; a partner in the business whose name never featured in the brand, parted ways with Moseley in 1831.

    I wonder if this prompted the use of "& Sons" in etching rather than "& Co"

    I've found 2 William iv examples using & sons and mine is a VR so very likely in a narrow window of 1837-45.

    Anyone have anything definitive about the use of & Sons rather than & Co?

    There is a good bit of info on the company in this old thread here:

    http://swordforum.com/vb4/showthread...-Hawkes-amp-co

  2. #2
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    From Oldswords.com

    England London Hawkes, Thomas 1788 1796 17 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes, Thomas 1797 1809 24 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes, T., Moseley & Co 1810 1820 22 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes, Moseley & Co 1821 1852 14 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes & Co 1852 1908 14 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes & Co, Ltd 1908 1912 14 Piccadilly
    England London Hawkes & Co, Ltd 1912 1974 1 Saville Row

    Cheers
    GC

  3. #3
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    Hi Glen,

    No sign of Hawkes Moseley & Sons! I'm wondering why and when they used it in their etching

  4. #4
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    Its actually quite difficult to photograph due to the reflection of the blade.

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  5. #5
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    I've now found a victorian 1821 pipeback HC (13424) on old swords which uses "Hawkes & Moseley & Co" Showing that both wording was used in that 8 year period.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by james.elstob View Post
    Hi all

    I've just acquired an 1821 quill point LC in fantastic condition with a mirror finish blade and leather covered scabbard ascribed to Hawkes Moseley & Sons.

    Although I've seen the "& Sons" used before on other items all references I can find to the company refer to the official name as being "& Co"

    I've read that after Hawkes' death, Thomas Walker; a partner in the business whose name never featured in the brand, parted ways with Moseley in 1831.

    I wonder if this prompted the use of "& Sons" in etching rather than "& Co"

    I've found 2 William iv examples using & sons and mine is a VR so very likely in a narrow window of 1837-45.

    Anyone have anything definitive about the use of & Sons rather than & Co?

    There is a good bit of info on the company in this old thread here:

    http://swordforum.com/vb4/showthread...-Hawkes-amp-co
    Hi James, Any chance of an image of the hilt and the point of the blade, also can you please tell me the length of quill section.

    Gordon

  7. #7
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    Imo, the & sons would have only been appropriate while an elder was alive. So, I think we are probably thinking much the same regarding blade etches. None would likely have been produced as Hawkes T & Sons after the senior passed away but a Hawes & Sons might have been a nod to a third generation and certainly have been in tandem with the Moseley years in question.

    Cheers
    GC

  8. #8
    Hi James,

    Photo appeared after I last looked, but still like to see an image of the hilt and know the length of the false edge.

  9. #9
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    Blade = 34"
    Quill = 9 & 3/4"

    The blade has never been sharpened so there is no loss from the tip. I'm not 100% on that tape measure though, I think it came from a Christmas cracker!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Imo, the & sons would have only been appropriate while an elder was alive. So, I think we are probably thinking much the same regarding blade etches. None would likely have been produced as Hawkes T & Sons after the senior passed away but a Hawes & Sons might have been a nod to a third generation and certainly have been in tandem with the Moseley years in question.

    Cheers
    GC
    Glen, just to clarify that we are not talking at odds, I think the Sons must refer to the Sons of Moseley rather than Hawkes, agreed?

  11. #11
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    Have I made a mistake in referring to this as a quill point? I'm beginning to think the quill point is something specifically more pronounced than this. Or is the term interchangeable with yelman?

  12. #12
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    I think its a carps tongue point and a quill back blade.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  13. #13
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    pipe back quill point

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