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Thread: Crest assistance

  1. #1
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    Crest assistance

    Hi all I could do with some assistance please, with a crest on an unnumbered Wilkinson.

    The initials seems to be S. H. H. And there are a couple of officer's in the lists commissioned pre 1854.

    Simpson Hackett Hobbs of 89th foot.

    Samuel Henry Harford of 56th foot, cape mounted rifles and 75th foot.

    However I can't find the crest of either for comparison.

    Is this a demi-griffin couped between two wings?

    I think it's holding a spear in its beak but it could be an ice cream cone on a stick for all I know.

    Any ideas?

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    Try again for a better image

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    Last edited by james.elstob; 11-06-2019 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Add photos

  2. #2
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    Nice touch to the blade. Have you tried looking for the arms or achievement?
    Tom Donoho

  3. #3
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    Hi Tom,

    My understanding of heraldry is basic so forgive me if i misunderstand but searches on arms for both Hobbs and Harford return images giving possible hints at a bird in the crest.

    Hobbs seems to have a heron but holding a fish.

    One result for Harford has something more similar to my crest a bird like creature between two wings but nothing in its beak.

    In any event I can only find generic images of the arms for Harford without description. The Fairbairn's and Burke's I have access to online don't seem to offer any help.

    With regard to 'achievement' you will have to enlighten me. I've never heard that term before.

    Regards

  4. #4
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    This may just confuse the issue, but the version of Fairbairn's that I use shows a similar crest (albeit with the body of the bird rising slightly higher and a star on its chest, but with the "spear" in its beak) for Hare, Hester, and Hutchinson.

  5. #5
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    Thanks Mark,

    I've used the 1858 list but none of those 3 names features in conjunction with the initials S. H. H.

    Just for completeness there are 2 more officers who share those initials but I discounted them as their commissions came in 1855. I suppose it is possible they acquired their swords in 1853 or before.

    Samuel Handy Halahan
    Sidney Henry Haywood

  6. #6
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    Is it actually an "S" and not a F or? The crest does appear to have a spear/pole arm. I agree the sword could be acquired pre 1855 explaining lack of serial number.

  7. #7
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    Will,

    You could be right, what i thought was the top of the S curling round could be the bar of an F.

    That could introduce

    Fran houlton Hartwell 17th foot
    Fred Harry hope 1st foot

  8. #8
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    James,
    If you haven't already, there are the Royal Engineer officers to check (pre 1857 used infantry officers sword), as well as the Indian army infantry/engineer officers (Bengal, Madras, Bombay). Assuming it's an infantry officers sword. From your pictures the first initial looks like an S or maybe an L.

  9. #9
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    Hi Mike,

    I've checked the 1854 indian list. There is only one S/F. H. H. who is an artillery cadet so wrong pattern.

    I thought the RE officers would be included in Harts?

    I don't think it's an L because of a lack of bottom line.

    Here is what I see now, I think Will is right because the bar of what would be the F is capped on both ends (p. s. indicating that it is a bar rather than what i thought was the tail of the top of an S)

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    Last edited by james.elstob; 11-08-2019 at 02:02 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by james.elstob View Post
    Hi Mike,

    I've checked the 1854 indian list. There is only one S/F. H. H. who is an artillery cadet so wrong pattern.
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    What presidency? Some Bengal Artillery officers opted for an infantry hilt. I have one and have seen another. It's low on the probability scale but still possible.
    R.E. officers are in Hart's, just wanted to make sure you were including them in your search. At least you have the crest and the last initial so this is solvable.

    P.S. Just remembered this. I don't believe Militia Officers are listed in the index in Hart's. You'll have to check each regiment.
    Last edited by MikeShowers; 11-08-2019 at 09:43 AM.

  11. #11
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    Mike, I can't recall which presidency now but I recall he graduated in 1844 so suggesting that he would have already acquired a sword prior to the introduction of the Wilkinson blade.

    You're right of course about milita officers. There is also a possibility that the sword was aquired by a regular officer who had a short period commission and came and went from the lists by 1854.

    Maybe I'll take up crosswords instead.
    Last edited by james.elstob; 11-08-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  12. #12
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    I should probably mention as an indicator of dating this sword has the solid guard rather than the hinged folding section so more likely to be later in the Wilkinson pre-numbering perod. 1845-1854

  13. #13
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    Evening all,

    Still struggling with this identification.

    From the heraldry approach. I have what I thought to be a 'griffin's head' couped but in a rare moment of clarity I realised that from a bestiary point of view a couped Griffin's head is just... an eagle's head. Is there some particular style in heraldry to differentiate Eagle from Griffin when only the head is shown?

    The closest match I have found with any match to an actual officer is against the possibility that the initials are 'SHH'.

    Burkes 1847 gives the harford of Blaize Castle crest as "Out of a coronet, issuing from flames, ppr., a griffin's head, or, between two wings, az., fire issuing from the mouth."

    The Harford line includes Samuel Henry Harford of Frenchay Lodge, Bristol but I can't find the crest used by this branch of the family.

    Comissioned by purchase in 1851. 56th foot, Cape Mounted Rifles and 75th foot.

    Interestingly he is the uncle of Colonel Henry Charles Harford of Anglo Zulu war fame.

    Can anyone please help to verify the crest of the Harfords of Frenchay Lodge, Bristol?
    Last edited by james.elstob; 11-22-2019 at 11:58 AM.

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