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Thread: Spanish rapier and identification mark

  1. #1

    Spanish rapier and identification mark

    Hello. Colleagues. Please help in finding the stigma. I will be very grateful to you.
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  2. #2
    Do you mean these things?
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Wilkinson View Post
    Do you mean these things?
    i mean this stigma
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
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    Hi, Artem.

    If you mean the mark that Gene has pointed out, it looks like the anchor mark quite often found on blades made in Solingen, whoever the maker. About the faded lettering, only a portion can be seen in your pictures, impossible to say something about it.

    Regarding the whole sword... the style of the hilt is undoubtedly Spanish, c. 1650, in the fashion of twin shells linked with bars, where normally only the outer one is decorated. Your version is quite a different, very stylised rendering of the basic pattern. Although the designs engraved are consistent with the supposed age of the sword, their execution make me feel a bit uncomfortable. But, hey, maybe it is just me... one gets a bit paranoic at an age.

    One last comment: the blade has a ricasso that is too long for the hilt, as it can easily be seen. Not a big deal, it was quite common to re-hilt older blades back then. But a very nice sword, all in all.
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    L'abbaye de Theleme
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    Nice rapier.
    Lately I have been looking if there was a transition from cup hilts to two shells swords through lobated cup hilts and later to dissimilar shells, and your sword looks like one of those transitions, sometime around 1660.
    No idea about the CAI mark. No room for CAINO. Notice another piece has a part of the ricasso outside the shell.

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    An important question is where the screws can be located, because on the completed transition to two shells they can not be on the sides.
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    Last edited by Javier Ramos; 11-22-2019 at 07:37 AM.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Artem P. View Post
    i mean this stigma
    Hi Artem,

    It's a beautiful sword.
    I have never seen these symbols described as a 'stigma'.

    Others more knowledgeable than I, have already answered the question, but just to add my agreement to theirs, I do not think that these marks are indicative of individual makers.
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 11-22-2019 at 02:36 PM.

  7. #7
    Hey. Sorry to everyone for the incorrect word. I write through Google translator.. I mean "mark,stamp,brand"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Wilkinson View Post
    Hi Artem,

    It's a beautiful sword.
    I have never seen these symbols described as a 'stigma'.

    Others more knowledgeable than I, have already answered the question, but just to add my agreement to theirs, I do not think that these marks are indicative of individual makers.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,121
    Good post--nice pix of rapiers. Thanks, guys.
    Tom Donoho

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Posts
    79
    Indeed Javier, thanks for posting the pictures of all the rapiers! So pretty. Ironically, the third one you posted from Skinners is mine

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    L'abbaye de Theleme
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    777
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Honey View Post
    Indeed Javier, thanks for posting the pictures of all the rapiers! So pretty. Ironically, the third one you posted from Skinners is mine
    Another of my interests is silver from India Raj period. That from Kutch is very similar to the decoration in your rapier (if you google "kutch silver" you will see what do I mean). I wonder the influences from Portuguese Goa or whatever direction that could go in that (igreja do sao Francisco, in Porto for more of that style, foliage and horror vacui).
    Last edited by Javier Ramos; 11-27-2019 at 06:34 AM.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Posts
    79
    That was very interesting Javier. I have never heard of Kutch silver before and yes, it does look similar. When I purchased it, it was described as Spanish (if memory serves me correctly). The pommel is Norman’s type 22 and the cup guard I believe is Brescian. Leslie Southwick has an example in his book of a similar sword (pg. 56) and calls it a Brescian cup hilt rapier; blade 41” (mine is 40.5”).

    I wonder if it influenced the design of the Kutch silver? I believe mine has unfortunately had some work done to it. I don’t believe the quillons and knuckle bow are original and the inner plate that would sit in the cup (as is visible in Leslie Southwick’s book) is missing. The makers name on the blade is also illegible sadly. But, none the less, I am quite pleased with it and more then a little shocked when I won it at auction.

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    A close up of the two guards. You can compare the birds in the picture.

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