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Thread: Soviet Cossack Shaska ricasso marking ID?

  1. #1

    Soviet Cossack Shaska ricasso marking ID?

    I recently procured a Soviet shaska made at Zlatoust in 1938. The opposite ricasso has some markings that I hope some here could decipher. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Len
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  2. #2
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    Len: The triangle in a circle is usually Izhevsk, but this one is not quite the same, the other marks are a mystery to me..

    A,K,M,O & T are the same in English and Russian....The remaining letters are different.

    Dale
    Last edited by Dale Martin; 01-18-2020 at 07:26 PM.

  3. #3
    Hi Dale,
    Thanks for your input. On another forum I discovered that the "Г" & "M" are inspection marks and the "15KГ" is for some type of blade test. The circled triangle isn't Izhevsk but what it does represent is unknown.

    Len

  4. #4
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    Hello everybody.
    I want to immediately correct the author of the topic by name - Cossack shashka were issued in tsarist Russia until 1917, although they were used by various units of the Red Army during the Civil War.
    The checker you showed is a Soviet covalery shashka of the 1927 sample (for this sample the sample of the Cossack shashka sample 1881 was taken as a basis) and it should have nests for a bayonet on each clip of the scabbard, in contrast to the Cossack shashki, the scabbard of which was not attached to wear a bayonet.
    To be honest, I don’t really like the look of the stamps applied to the blade. I don’t want to say anything, but for a more accurate determination of the authenticity of the stamps and their compliance with the time period for the release of the shashka of 1938 (I see the year applied as 1938), I will ask you to post photos of the handle completely on both sides, with all alphabetic brands, as well as a photo inscriptions of the СССР (USSR) with the coat of arms on the head of the handle. Also show the clips of the scabbard (all, including a glass) with the lettering stamps applied to them.
    With best regards, Vladimir.

  5. #5
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    The fact is that in 1938 the Zlatoust plant was called the Zlatoust tool factory and on the blades the brand of the factory looked like that of a "ЗИЗ".
    Since 1939, the plant was renamed the "Zlatoust Instrument Plant" and on the blades of the clemo plant began to look like this "ЗИК".I don’t know if there is a difference in the words of a plant or a plant in English, I think not, in Russian these names are written differently - a "Завод" in the first case and a "комбинат" in the second case.
    Therefore, there is a difference in cleme on blades.
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  6. #6
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    And here are the stigmas of 1939
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  7. #7
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    In addition, there are minor differences on the shashka produced in different years.
    I don’t know if this is allowed by the rules of the forum, but I want to post a link to one Russian-language forum on which there is a topic of Soviet cavalry drafts, in which all the nuances are described in detail, though in Russian.
    Here's a link:
    https://askalon.club/threads/%D0%9F%...B4%D0%B0.7168/

    In order to see enlarged photos, you need to register on the forum.
    I think the translator of the web pages will translate the stated information into the desired language.
    I do not speak English either, but I read and write through an electronic translator.
    I think the link is very valuable information for everyone interested in the Soviet long-blade weapon.
    With best regards, Vladimir.
    Last edited by Vladimir Sukhomlinov; 01-27-2020 at 04:57 AM.

  8. #8
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    Thank you for your excellent information.

  9. #9
    Hi Vladimir,
    sorry for mis-identifying this piece as a Cossack sword. Here are the additional pics you requested. The only markings I can see , apart from those on the ricassos , are six pointed stars on the brass pieces excluding the pommel. Some of the stars also have what looks like the cyrillic letter Л stamped over them.

    Best regards,
    Len
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  10. #10
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    Hello Len.
    Thanks for the nice photos.
    The photo shows that the shashka is original in good condition and no interventions, since the nut on the handle head is not touched - if it was unscrewed, it would be visible.
    Congratulations on your good items in the collection.

    Now, with regard to the marks applied to the blade and all other parts:

    1. On the blade is the klemta of the plant in Zlatoust, the Cyrillic alphabet “ЗИК” and the four digits of the year -1938.
    In 1938, two different cleme of the plant are found, this is the "ЗИЗ", which was put on blades from 1935 to 1938, and the "ЗИК", which began to be installed from 1938 to 1944. This is due to the fact that Zaod changed its name from mid-1938. Your blade was released after the name change in the second half of 1938.
    Thus, your blade was made in 1938, and I think the shashka was assembled in early 1940, as indicated by the stigma in the form of a "snowflake" on all brass parts. This is the technological mark of the senior artel of receivers who took parts into operation. A stamp in the form of a snowflake was placed in the period from 1939 to 1940, but since in some parts, along with the snowflake, there is the letter “Л” in Cyrillic, as well as the technological stamp, which was put only in 1939, we can conclude that when the assembly of the checker used parts with the letter "Л", but on them, like on other parts, they put the stamp "snowflake". A sort of transitional model of the period of the change of the name of the plant and technological brands

    2. Now, as for the other brands on the blade - a circle in a triangle, an unfamiliar brand (I asked other collectors who might know about it - if I find out the information, I will add in the subject).
    The mark in the form of the letters "M" on the blade, which presumably corresponds to the name of the receiver Mandich P.P.
    Brand M was put on checkers 1940-1941 (This once again confirms my opinion that collect the checker in early 1940).
    The stigma in the form of "15 кг" - presumably means the hardness of the blade according to the Knoop method (the method of pressing a diamond pyramid with a diamond-shaped section into a metal). In the late 20s and early 30s it was designated in kilopascals, and from the mid-30s they began to be designated in kilograms per square centimeter. Moreover, over time, its hardness decreased, because there are hallmarks "18Kr" and "17Kr". Since 1941, the hardness of metal on blades has ceased to denote at all. Knoop hardness of 15 - 16 units corresponds to Vickers hardness - 2300, Rockwell - 56 - 58, Brinell - 180 - 350, and Mohs - 9.

    I can also say that this shashka of rank-and-file composition, since it has a bayonet, the shashka of command personnel of bayonets did not have, since the commanders of the covalery units were not armed with rifles.

    You can also photograph the stigma on the bayonet to the mosin rifle, which is on the scabbard, from them I can tell where and approximately in what period this bayonet was released.
    The bayonet corresponds to a checker, since it is a Soviet bayonet modernized in 1931, which began to be fastened to the rifle with a latch, and not a clamp.

    With best regards, Vladimir.
    Last edited by Vladimir Sukhomlinov; 02-01-2020 at 02:44 AM.

  11. #11
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    I don’t know if everything is clear I wrote, since I used Google’s electronic translator

  12. #12
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    Vladimir:
    это мне ясно! It is clear to me....You explanation is excellent.

    Dale

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    I don’t know if everything is clear I wrote, since I used Google’s electronic translator
    I find your explanation excellent, Vladimir, thanks a lot for the detailed information provided. I was once trying to ID a similar piece, and now I've got all the clues.

    Best,
    Juan
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

  14. #14
    Hi Vladimir,
    Thanks for your exposition on my shaska and its markings. It's greatly appreciated. Also thanks for the link to the askalon site , there's a wealth of information there. Don't worry about the translator, it works really well. I was pleasantly surprised how good it was.
    The bayonet didn't come with the sword but was one I had in my collection. I don't believe it's one of the recent refurbished pieces imported into the US. I know it's Tula made but I'd be interested in hearing if you could determine approximate date of manufacture from the other markings.

    Best regards,
    Len
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  15. #15
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    Hi Len.
    For a more accurate identification of your bayonet, I need a photo of the bayonet tube on all sides.
    Now, what my acquaintance collector, the author of the book on the bayonets for the Mosin rifle, said:
    The approximate release period of the bayonet 1930-1937. He suggested that the bayonet could be with a namushnik who could be removed and for this he needed additional photos of the bayonet's tube.
    The star mark and the letter “П” in a circle are the hallmark of a plant in Tula.
    The second illegible mark is similar to the letters "OTК" - the mark of the department of technical control (also Tula).
    The letter, similar to "У", is similar to the mark of one of the Finnish warehouses, which indicates that the bayonet was used by the Finns. Could be captured as a trophy during the Soviet-Finnish War of 1939.
    More custom information on the modification of the bayonet will be told to me after receiving additional photos from you.
    With best regards, Vladimir.
    P.S. - I apologize in advance for writing in this thread, but maybe someone will be interested in a book on bayonets for the Mosin rifle, published by my acquaintance collector.
    Below is a cover photo and some pages.
    If anyone is interested, I will write the email address of the author to contact him directly.
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