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Thread: Assistance in identifying the model 1902 saber

  1. #26
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    Apr 2018
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    Vladivostok, Russia
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    241
    Sean, thank you very much for answering and participating in the discussion of the question that interests me.
    I noticed that on the photo of the saber I bought (it has not yet arrived to me) above Horstmann's emblem, closer to the hilt, there is an inscription "Germany", just as there is no "Star of David" around the "prooved" sign, as on the saber you showed.
    Tell me, can these small differences affect the production time?
    Now, regarding the alleged owner of this saber.
    If indeed this saber was made in 1920-1930 and the name was engraved at the same time, then William H. Bokum, if this is exactly the Bockum whose data Will sought out and showed in the topic, graduated from Lehigh University in 1925 and Harvard Graduate School and Business administration in 1929 (data according to his obituary in the New York Times at this link: https://www.nytimes.com/1970/03/03/a...s-adviser.html) then this excludes his connection with the army and he could not be the owner of this saber, since he received a specialized economic education.
    Again, if we assume that it was this Bokum who owned the saber, it could be that he received it as a gift when he joined the Ordnance Association in 1941, being, for example, a civilian business consultant or some kind of commercial agent, if this the organization contributed to the development, production, acquisition and maintenance of weapons systems. Indeed, in 1941 he was 36 years old, which is probably too late to be drafted into the army. Or was this saber simply presented to him by some military friends on some significant date, that's all, since anyone could buy such sabers?
    If this idea of ​​mine looks absurd, then the conclusion remains that the saber could have belonged to another Bokum, who was an army officer, but why then there is no data about him in the army registers you have of the period from the early 1900s to the 1960s, or in the registers of the reserve and the national guard before 1936? Also, there is no mention of him on the Internet on sites for compiling genealogical roots?
    In general, the owner of this saber is some kind of "Mister X", who creates puzzles to solve
    Sincerely, Vladimir.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
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    440
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    Sean, thank you very much for answering and participating in the discussion of the question that interests me.
    I noticed that on the photo of the saber I bought (it has not yet arrived to me) above Horstmann's emblem, closer to the hilt, there is an inscription "Germany", just as there is no "Star of David" around the "prooved" sign, as on the saber you showed.
    Tell me, can these small differences affect the production time?
    Marking products with the country of origin has been US law in various forms since the late 19th century. The Horstmann M1902 below with an inscription dating it to 1905 is marked "Germany". So the Germany marking is not usually relevant to dating a US saber, except to probably exclude it from being produced during WWI or WWII.

    The interlocking triangle mark around the proof slug also has little to do with dating; it's an etch variation originally associated with quality in the 19th Century that was copied by many makers and retailers and is even still used on some M1902 sabers today. It could signify a trade name variation, or a quality level, or nothing at all depending on the maker.


    Now, regarding the alleged owner of this saber.
    It's possible the saber was a gift. Or it could have been part of fraternal regalia, or a uniform item for a military-style secondary school. I wouldn't discount it being a different person just because the name doesn't show up in the registers I checked. I have owned several named sabers whose owners were not in the registers, especially National Guard officers. It will just need deeper research.
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  3. #28
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    Apr 2018
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    Vladivostok, Russia
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    241
    Sean, thanks for the answer.
    If the Ordnance Association does not answer me, then I think that my possibilities for a deeper search for the saber owner, to my regret, have been exhausted, since being in Russia I hardly have the opportunity to find any additional sources of information located in the USA.
    The information presented in the topic was largely found not by me, but by other forum participants living in the North American continent.
    Sincerely, Vladimir.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
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    3,600
    Ancestry website has many listings and if there were other Bokums with the same initials they would appear. There is only one. That there is no other info appearing strongly suggests this is your man.

  5. #30
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    Apr 2018
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    Vladivostok, Russia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Mathieson View Post
    Ancestry website has many listings and if there were other Bokums with the same initials they would appear. There is only one. That there is no other info appearing strongly suggests this is your man.
    I hope so...
    Got a response from Ordnance Association. They wrote me the email address of a historian, said that he could help me figure it out, but when I send my letter, an automatic reply comes that the address is incorrect or does not exist. Maybe a spelling mistake - I asked them to double-check it.
    You may be able to get more information.

  6. #31
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    Apr 2018
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    Vladivostok, Russia
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    Just now I noticed that on the sabers shown by Sean, in the circle of the quality check mark it says "proved", and on the saber shown by me "prooved" - what does it mean? Spelling error?

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
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    440
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    Just now I noticed that on the sabers shown by Sean, in the circle of the quality check mark it says "proved", and on the saber shown by me "prooved" - what does it mean? Spelling error?
    It's a spelling variant. M1902 sabers from several different makers/retailers have the same "misspelled" slug, always to my recollection in white brass; my supposition is that they sourced the blades from the same German maker. Or, maybe not.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
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    3,600
    Vladimir there are many variations of the gilt brass proved disc. Some say: proved, proof, prooved, P, T, and others such as Wilkinsons "HW". Occasionally these are missing since some brass discs are gold gilt, some tend to remove them thinking they are gold.
    Harvey Withers book "Swords of the British Army" has a couple pages full of different proof discs.

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