Caveat Emptor--a Beginner's Guide to buying swords on eBay--WITH EXAMPLES!

[Frances Perry]

A prime example of tat being sold on shopping channels to unsuspecting customers - these were being touted as "Practice Katanas".... What injuries could have been caused...?

http://www.nearlygood.com/video/weakknive.html

[Julius D.]

Originally posted by M.K. Ridgeway
A nonsensensical marketing term as it is used by that seller... To go along with " Japanese Grey Iron".

LOL

You know, I came across a reference to Japanese grey-steel... but cold-forged is a crap marketing term? I was asking because I came across a few seemingly well-made knives that were marketed as cold forged; one was the Cold Steel bushman I think it's called. A solid piece of steel, including the handle. Ah well. If I didn't learn something new every day well...I'd be missing something wouldn't I?

[Tom Woodruff]

Hello everyone. In reguards to this article and some other comments on here I am now upset:

http://www.debat-mors.dk/sword_fakes.pdf

The person who wrote this kept speaking of red rust as being an indication of a fake. But that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Metal made from any time can have red rust on it! I just bought a 150 year old sword and the seller didn't oil it enough and now it has red rust on it. Is it a fake because of the red rust? Hell no!

Next, ebay. I have heard many times that people selling swords for $0.99 are liars and the swords are fake. While this is a flag for caution, you must understand the mechanics of ebay before you say something like you. You see, ebay charges sellers an amount based on the starting price of items, and the lower the starting price, the lowering the cost for the seller. So it the seller has a rare sword that will cost a bunch to list and maybe not be bought then why would he want to start the listing price high? Lower prices also attract more buyers, especially since so many buyers are not informed.

Lastly, the wraps on Japanese swords. Now, I don't know anything about Japanese swords so forgive my iggnorance. This article claims that the wraps on the handles should be perfect if it's authentic. But wouldn't years of use and abuse make the wraps look bad? How could those diamonds possibly stay perfect if the weapon has been used? This just seems like common sense to me.

Someone help me out here! I'm going crazy!

Woody

[Robert B. Marks]

Originally posted by Tom Woodruff
Hello everyone. In reguards to this article and some other comments on here I am now upset:

http://www.debat-mors.dk/sword_fakes.pdf

The person who wrote this kept speaking of red rust as being an indication of a fake. But that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Metal made from any time can have red rust on it! I just bought a 150 year old sword and the seller didn't oil it enough and now it has red rust on it. Is it a fake because of the red rust? Hell no!

No, but if you don't understand how rust works, I can see why you wouldn't be suspicious if an antique sword had red rust on it.

On antique swords, the rust will form what is called a patina - a sort of grey or black rust. This rust will actually serve as a protective layer, preventing new rust from forming. So, you won't get red rust on top of a patina. If a sword looks old and corroded, but has red rust on it, then it is a warning sign, because the rust is the wrong colour. It should have darkened and formed a patina a very long time ago.

Next, ebay. I have heard many times that people selling swords for $0.99 are liars and the swords are fake. While this is a flag for caution, you must understand the mechanics of ebay before you say something like you. You see, ebay charges sellers an amount based on the starting price of items, and the lower the starting price, the lowering the cost for the seller. So it the seller has a rare sword that will cost a bunch to list and maybe not be bought then why would he want to start the listing price high? Lower prices also attract more buyers, especially since so many buyers are not informed.

Considering the nature of the sword market, I honestly don't see this as being true. A good antique Japanese sword would probably be a guarnanteed seller, and at a high price. Aside from which, acquiring the sword would probably have been quite costly to the seller, and the seller would want to at least break even on the sale. So, the main thing that a sword with a cheap starting price on eBay says to me is that the sword cost the seller very little, and that in turn suggests that the blade is not authentic.

Best regards to all,

Robert Marks

[Tom Woodruff]

Originally posted by Robert B. Marks
No, but if you don't understand how rust works, I can see why you wouldn't be suspicious if an antique sword had red rust on it.

On antique swords, the rust will form what is called a patina - a sort of grey or black rust. This rust will actually serve as a protective layer, preventing new rust from forming. So, you won't get red rust on top of a patina. If a sword looks old and corroded, but has red rust on it, then it is a warning sign, because the rust is the wrong colour. It should have darkened and formed a patina a very long time ago.

Hello Robert,

Thank you for your information. My sword does have that blackish type rust on it. But my other just as old sword that has a well taken care of blade is now forming new red rust. And this new rust is what I was referring to in reguards to it being an antique with red rust. An antique sword isn't always going to have the patina on it, correct? If it doesn't have a patina, then it's going to get red rust. Is this correct? This is what I was basing the first part of my post off of.

Thanks again,

Woody

[Robert B. Marks]

Originally posted by Tom Woodruff
Hello Robert,

Thank you for your information. My sword does have that blackish type rust on it. But my other just as old sword that has a well taken care of blade is now forming new red rust. And this new rust is what I was referring to in reguards to it being an antique with red rust. An antique sword isn't always going to have the patina on it, correct? If it doesn't have a patina, then it's going to get red rust. Is this correct? This is what I was basing the first part of my post off of.

Thanks again,

Woody

Well, it depends on the antique, of course. Something that was kept in a family and taken careful care of will quite possibly be quite shiny, even after a couple of hundred years. Something that was used on battlefields, dropped, and dug out of the earth should have a patina.

But if there is no patina, then yes, any new rust will be red.

Best regards to all,

Robert Marks

[dominic grant]

ok i am getting lost here

i have a 1912 cavalry pat. excellent blade but the hilt is covered in a reddish rust

is it that you are saying it is a fake or are you saying its ok?

i know the provenance of this blade and it is genuine. i got lost in the comments there any one out there care to enlighten me?

cheers

[Tom Woodruff]

Originally posted by dominic grant
ok i am getting lost here

i have a 1912 cavalry pat. excellent blade but the hilt is covered in a reddish rust

is it that you are saying it is a fake or are you saying its ok?

i know the provenance of this blade and it is genuine. i got lost in the comments there any one out there care to enlighten me?

cheers

I think what the above article was saying about buying swords with red rust on ebay was to be careful because red rust is an indicator that it is new rust, which could mean that the sword was recently made and it is a fake. Like your sword, mine is original and mine still has red rust because the blade has been well taken care of since it was made. So red rust, to me, means nothing of its authenticity. However, if the blade has grey or black like rust, that's the patina. The patina, like Robert mentioned, is a layer of "old" rust that has been on the sword for a long time. This rust is not bad and will not harm the sword any further. The only way to rid the blade of this rust is to grind it off, which you don't want to do on an original sword.

Could someone (Robert?) verify that what I have said is true?

Thanks,

Woody

[Robert B. Marks]

Originally posted by Tom Woodruff
I think what the above article was saying about buying swords with red rust on ebay was to be careful because red rust is an indicator that it is new rust, which could mean that the sword was recently made and it is a fake. Like your sword, mine is original and mine still has red rust because the blade has been well taken care of since it was made. So red rust, to me, means nothing of its authenticity. However, if the blade has grey or black like rust, that's the patina. The patina, like Robert mentioned, is a layer of "old" rust that has been on the sword for a long time. This rust is not bad and will not harm the sword any further. The only way to rid the blade of this rust is to grind it off, which you don't want to do on an original sword.

Could someone (Robert?) verify that what I have said is true?

Thanks,

Woody

That sounds about right to me.

Best regards to all,

Robert Marks

[dominic grant]

Originally posted by Tom Woodruff
I think what the above article was saying about buying swords with red rust on ebay was to be careful because red rust is an indicator that it is new rust, which could mean that the sword was recently made and it is a fake. Like your sword, mine is original and mine still has red rust because the blade has been well taken care of since it was made. So red rust, to me, means nothing of its authenticity. However, if the blade has grey or black like rust, that's the patina. The patina, like Robert mentioned, is a layer of "old" rust that has been on the sword for a long time. This rust is not bad and will not harm the sword any further. The only way to rid the blade of this rust is to grind it off, which you don't want to do on an original sword.

Could someone (Robert?) verify that what I have said is true?

Thanks,

Woody

i see, i sell on e-bay a lot and i felt that was a sweeping statement,
i was always taught that red rust is active or at the tail end of being active and the darker metal underneath is the pattination to the blade or hilt, after cleaning my 1912 i found dark pattination not the original shiny steel that was origonaly there, this again is what i would have expected.

yes there are unscrupleous sellers out there on e-bay selling artificialy aged blades and thats a damn shame, in fact it is damn criminal. i just felt that it was a bit of a sweeping statement.

ebay can be a good place if we watch out for the bad sellers and boycot them.

maybe i over reacted if i did apologies,

[Luke S Havily]

ok, iv read threw mos to of this discussion, an agree 100% with what poeple have been saying, i have only bought 1 sword, ever.. and after that have takern allot of time on ebay havent bough one since from there becouse i just cant be sertain if its a fake or not.

i hear allot of poeple saying how bad ebay is an how there are private dealers,
i think it would be verry usefull though, especialy for someone like me, who is kinda new to this whole thing, if someone could post a list of links, to outher dealers, an list the with information about them an if they have bought from them before. becouse, you could say i wouldnt kno who to trust even from dealers of ebay.

so a list of links to legit dealers that you poeple at SFI have used before would be VERRY usefull! an i would be verry apreciative!

[dominic grant]

check out the general forum regarding almost any type of blade or antique and miltary sword forum.

lots of things for discussion etc

as well as discussions on newer blades depending on what your particular interest is

[Sylvain Coucharriere]

I've noticed that a lot of advertisements for swords claimed "cold iron" or "cold steel" ... The things for which I've seen those claims were almost invariably fakes or, at best, SLOs... but I wondered : do those terms have a real meaning in the world of swords? Or is it pure craptalk that is a clue that the warez are bugged?

To me, "cold Iron" is something you find in old legend to get rid of troublesome fairies... I don't even know if you can "cold work" a metallic object to affect its metallurgical properties.

[Timo Qvintus]

Most (if not all) eBay links of the original are now obsolete, a time for an edit?