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Thread: Cult of the Small-Sword

  1. #726
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    Victor,

    This is interesting. I know one seller that is trying to market this sword as a 17th c. Venetian officer's sword. On what he bases that I have no idea.
    Tom Donoho

  2. #727
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    T. Donoho, PM sent.

    As for the guard on my smallsword, anything is a possibility, but it doesn't appear to be a composite. The pieces flow together nicely and there is no evidence of a re-peening.

    Are such double quillions rare?

    -Carl

  3. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Massaro View Post

    Are such double quillions rare?

    -Carl
    Yes, quite. I don't recall seeing another one like that.

  4. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Donoho View Post
    Victor,

    On what he bases that I have no idea.
    On weak economy, perhaps?

  5. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgan butler View Post
    =David Black Mastro;1067655]Morgan, who are you addressing, above?


    As for myself, I was simply responding to points brought up by Rocky, Victor, and T. Donoho. I don't see where the harm in that is (indeed, as several others have mentioned, it's been a great discussion), and I have certainly not prevented anyone else from being "heard on other subjects".

    In any event, I've done my best to state my case. Folks can either look at the hard facts, or ignore them.

    So by all means, carry on...



    David,

    "The hard facts"? The hard facts are that we are a bunch of 21st century recreational fencers and sword collecters. And none of it amounts to a hill of beans in this crazy world. (To quote Casablanca)

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, there. No big deal, bro.



    I just remember noticing that I had just posted pics of my new smallsword and no one even bothered to notice it, so embroiled were they in there feud.

    I think "absorbed in the debate" puts it more accurately, but again, no big deal.

    And for what it's worth, I noticed your pics, but smallswords aren't really my area in expertise (aside from broadly speaking, in terms of the difference between the classic, fully-developed French form, and the distinct Spanish type, with it's functional finger rings & generally longer rapier-style blade, etc). I figured I would leave commentary to those who really know the ins and outs of the smallsword.


    I even asked you to post some pics of what you consider civilian shearing/spadroon swords because I was interested (Plese see my thread 18th cen. western sword admiration society) I myself own 3 spadroons, 2 smallswords and 1 smallsword/hangar.

    Unfortunately, I have no pics to offer.

    However, there are a few examples in Neumann's book, that would fit the bill. Some are actually classified as spadroons, and some are not (but nevertheless fit the descriptions given by McBane, MacGregor, Taylor, et al).


    I love them all. As I was saying to Tom D. while we were hanging out at the virtual internet tavern picking swordfights with people, what I love about western swords is their multiplicity I love that there are so many different swords, and for each one a different technique. Its beautiful. And each technique (maybe more than one) can call out to an individual inspiring them to deepen there relationship to the mysteries of the sword. But in the end there is no need to try to prove thru words that their chosen dicsipline is the best because really in the hands of a skilled individual they are all quite deadly. As they all should be.
    I think someone should start a thread about point vs edge because people are interested obviously.

    That could be done. It's one of those great debates, at least in the history of Western swordsmanship.


    Anyway, this thread continues to be interesting. I'd like to learn more about the specifics of smallsword hilts, and about Carl's nice example, in particular. Smallswords with a full forward quillon seem comparatively rare, but Oakeshott lists one type that fits this description, dating from 1745 (see European Weapons and Armour From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution)



    Peace,

    David
    "Pray forget not to have your Broad-Sword, made according to my Pattern; for the Parliment has, and it will with your Postures in my wrestling-Book, cut the Small-Sword out of fashion" --Sir Thomas Parkyns, to Lord Thomas Manners, 1720


    "We begin with the Small-Sword, which we must allow to be the nearest Inlet to the relative Arts, and when we are upon the Back-Sword, their near Affinity will appear more clearly." --Captain John Godfrey, Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, 1747

  6. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Donoho View Post
    Victor,

    This is interesting. I know one seller that is trying to market this sword as a 17th c. Venetian officer's sword. On what he bases that I have no idea.

    That's an unusual sword.

    It doesn't appear like something a 17th century Venetian officer would carry; at that time, the Venetians fought with galleys, galleasses, and (to a lesser degree) with sailing ships, and while long-range gunnery had always been preferred by them, they were always ready for the boarding fight, too. That being the case, a Venetian officer of that period would have preferred something like a basket-hilted schiavona.


    Victor, does that sword have any obviously Venetian symbols on it? Anything like a winged Lion of St. Mark?
    "Pray forget not to have your Broad-Sword, made according to my Pattern; for the Parliment has, and it will with your Postures in my wrestling-Book, cut the Small-Sword out of fashion" --Sir Thomas Parkyns, to Lord Thomas Manners, 1720


    "We begin with the Small-Sword, which we must allow to be the nearest Inlet to the relative Arts, and when we are upon the Back-Sword, their near Affinity will appear more clearly." --Captain John Godfrey, Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, 1747

  7. #732
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    Yes, that cross-hilted sword was being marketed as mentioned--didn't seem right to me even though I had no idea what it really was. It's always sad to see this kind of thing turn up at dealers.

    A forward quillon was not rare at all on small-swords fitted with oval shells or boat shells (silver, steel or brass hilts). But I have only run across one other fitted to a butterfly shell--not quite sure what it is about. I also have run across a boat shell fitted with just the back quillon--that is quite out of the ordinary, too. These "odd" uses of the quillon(s) don't seem as if they would encumber handling of the sword in any way. Perhaps it was the fancy of the cutler or his customer.
    Tom Donoho

  8. #733
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    Not sure this is working. I tried to post a nice pic of an ormolu Rococo hilt that one could open for a larger view. Hmmm. Am I doing this correctly?


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    Tom Donoho

  9. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Donoho View Post
    Not sure this is working. I tried to post a nice pic of an ormolu Rococo hilt that one could open for a larger view. Hmmm. Am I doing this correctly?


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    Yep
    -Bradley L'Herrou

    Finding Swetnam

  10. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Donoho View Post
    A forward quillon was not rare at all on small-swords fitted with oval shells or boat shells (silver, steel or brass hilts). But I have only run across one other fitted to a butterfly shell--not quite sure what it is about.
    Dual quillon was standard on boat shells, but you could also see it on dual-oval ones, as on these swords.

    What I have never seen is dual quillon on swords with pierced steel hilts.
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  11. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Black Mastro View Post

    Victor, does that sword have any obviously Venetian symbols on it? Anything like a winged Lion of St. Mark?
    No, no marking that I can see, but as the text I provided seems to indicate, the sword is not Venetian. It is, however, extremely well made - quality of metalwork is simply superb.

  12. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by victor khomenko View Post
    No, no marking that I can see, but as the text I provided seems to indicate, the sword is not Venetian. It is, however, extremely well made - quality of metalwork is simply superb.

    So, do we know what that sword is, or is it a mystery...?
    "Pray forget not to have your Broad-Sword, made according to my Pattern; for the Parliment has, and it will with your Postures in my wrestling-Book, cut the Small-Sword out of fashion" --Sir Thomas Parkyns, to Lord Thomas Manners, 1720


    "We begin with the Small-Sword, which we must allow to be the nearest Inlet to the relative Arts, and when we are upon the Back-Sword, their near Affinity will appear more clearly." --Captain John Godfrey, Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, 1747

  13. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Black Mastro View Post
    So, do we know what that sword is, or is it a mystery...?
    No mystery, I already posted its description - did you miss it? Sorry, it is in Italian, but not hard to make sense.

  14. #739
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    Is there a book available that specifically addresses the papal swords--from the period of the actual papal states when the papacy enforced and defended its temporal authority as well as later swords after the fall of the papal states with the unification of Italy. I imagine there are specific small-sword patters that were in use. I do know that the papal knightly orders do have small-swords (turned down shell variety) as part of their official uniforms. Of course, I would be interested in the small-swords. But, also, what does the papal guard carry--I assume it is some kind of arming sword with a throw back to 16th century design or something--not sure if it is the papal guard or the Swiss guard--but them must have some kind of sword.

    Tom
    Tom Donoho

  15. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by victor khomenko View Post
    No mystery, I already posted its description - did you miss it? Sorry, it is in Italian, but not hard to make sense.

    Yeah, I saw the description, but my linguistic skills are not up to par.


    How 'bout a quick summary in English?
    "Pray forget not to have your Broad-Sword, made according to my Pattern; for the Parliment has, and it will with your Postures in my wrestling-Book, cut the Small-Sword out of fashion" --Sir Thomas Parkyns, to Lord Thomas Manners, 1720


    "We begin with the Small-Sword, which we must allow to be the nearest Inlet to the relative Arts, and when we are upon the Back-Sword, their near Affinity will appear more clearly." --Captain John Godfrey, Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, 1747

  16. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Donoho View Post
    Is there a book available that specifically addresses the papal swords--from the period of the actual papal states when the papacy enforced and defended its temporal authority as well as later swords after the fall of the papal states with the unification of Italy. I imagine there are specific small-sword patters that were in use. I do know that the papal knightly orders do have small-swords (turned down shell variety) as part of their official uniforms. Of course, I would be interested in the small-swords. But, also, what does the papal guard carry--I assume it is some kind of arming sword with a throw back to 16th century design or something--not sure if it is the papal guard or the Swiss guard--but them must have some kind of sword.

    Tom

    Swiss guard.

    They're more well known for their traditional polearm--the halberd.

    While the current Swiss Guard wears late 16th century-style armor, their swords actually look pretty nondescript, and not truly representative of was 16th century Swiss troops would have carried.
    "Pray forget not to have your Broad-Sword, made according to my Pattern; for the Parliment has, and it will with your Postures in my wrestling-Book, cut the Small-Sword out of fashion" --Sir Thomas Parkyns, to Lord Thomas Manners, 1720


    "We begin with the Small-Sword, which we must allow to be the nearest Inlet to the relative Arts, and when we are upon the Back-Sword, their near Affinity will appear more clearly." --Captain John Godfrey, Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence, 1747

  17. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Black Mastro View Post
    Yeah, I saw the description, but my linguistic skills are not up to par.


    How 'bout a quick summary in English?
    I don't read Italian either, I had to type it into on-line translator, but since then lost the fine, will try to do it again, but not today.

    Mostly it was the design description.

  18. #743
    Here is a nice sword that I bid a tremendous amount of money on and.....lost. But I have the pics for us. a beautiful military style colichmarde.
    Did anyone of us win it? Anyone? Dont be shy!
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    Peace, Love, SWORDS!

  19. #744
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    I saw this one, Morgan. Looked as if it was in pretty good shape. Nice.
    Tom Donoho

  20. #745
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    A Nice Small-Sword...

    An unusually complete SS with scabbard and carrier. It looks to be English, faceted steel, c. 1780.


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    Tom Donoho

  21. #746

    New/Old acquistion

    Just got a nice peirced hilt smallsword dated 1762. The grip is probably a replacement. There is pitting along the middle of the blade but it still looks nice. Blade is 33 inches. I always wanted a pierced hilt and this one was affordable to a lowly paid dacoit like myself.
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    Last edited by morgan butler; 06-18-2009 at 11:13 AM.
    Peace, Love, SWORDS!

  22. #747
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    Morgan,

    Nice one!

    Is the blade oval section or a combined configuration (oval to hexagon, for example)?

    Why do you think the grip is replaced--is it because of the ferrules?
    Tom Donoho

  23. #748
    Well to tell you the truth I havent recieved it yet, but here is the sellers description

    "Very nice pierced and chiseled steel hilt. wire appears to be silver wire with silver bands. probably 19th c addition. Could be 18th c., but doesn't really match the style of the hilt. Unfortunatley, the blade is quite pitted on both sides in the middle section. (but it is 242 years old) it is still thick, robust and retains it's strength. just doesn't look pretty. Blade is dated Solingen, 1767.
    I could have replaced the blade, but it appears to be original and very long, so I left it as is. Blade length 33 inches. overall length 39 3/4 inches."

    I'm pretty sure the blade is completely oval. If you have more info or an alternate opinion on the grip I would totally be interested in hearing it. I would of course rather believe that the grip is original. But it looks to be in too-good a condition and the ferrules have a shinier metal than the rest of the hilt.
    Last edited by morgan butler; 06-18-2009 at 11:18 AM.
    Peace, Love, SWORDS!

  24. #749
    Nice sword !

    Here are some of mine from Frederik 4's regin(1699-1730). The three in the center all has his monogram on the blades.

    Arne

  25. #750
    Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful swords Arnie. Damn you! Just when I was starting to feel good about myself again.
    Seriously, I really, really,love smallswords from the late 1600's and first half of the 18th cen. I have a mourning sword from 1750 but I would LOVE to have a transitional smallsword/rapier from the1680s-90's! I like the one in the middle and the one on the far right!
    Last edited by morgan butler; 06-18-2009 at 12:11 PM.
    Peace, Love, SWORDS!

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