1796 LC sabre - French complaints

**John Hart** · 07-29-2011, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by T. Graham

I am amazed at the response to this M1796 saber thread. But let's boil it down. Richard Sharp carried one and that is why the French were afraid of it.

As I'm sure others will rush to point out, Richard Sharpe carried the Heavy Cavalry 1796 sword, rather than the Light Cavalry sabre - even more inconvenient when you consider he was an infantryman!

John

John

**David Critchley** · 07-29-2011, 03:57 AM

If we are wandering into fiction, Jack Aubrey carries the 1796LC as a boarding sword ... or so O'Brian writes in "The Commodore", or possibly "The Yellow Admiral"
But then he's meant to be 6' 6" and 17 stone.

**Yves Casa** · 03-04-2012, 01:56 AM

Dear all,
I am a French collector and never found article or comments in French books or memoires regarding complains from the 1796 english pattern , but french favored the thrust in order to kill - according to General de Brack-(all Montmorency blades were just slightly curved) when obviously the 1796 was very good at cutting.
I am afraid it's more english propagenda...but we have the same it is said in France that English were complaining about the killing blow effect of the fench cuirassier sword AN IX -XI pattern
Please have a look at my sword collection at http://swordscollection.blogspot.com
best regards
Yves

**L. Braden** · 03-04-2012, 01:57 PM

Yves,
You should read either "British Sword Fighting" or "Blades of the British Empire" re the fallacious theory of Gen. de Brack and others that "thrusts kill and cuts only wound", plus the comments of Col. Parquin re the effectiveness of British sabres, as well as the whole cuirassier vs. hussar/dragoon/life-guard controversy.
Best Regards!

**gordon byrne** · 03-05-2012, 05:45 PM

Hi all,
Some decades later, and in India and not a complaint but an observation, the noted British Cavalry officer in name Captain Nolan took particular interest in the fearful wounds inflicted by native troopers swords; on close inspection, he found their swords to have British Dragoon type blades (the 1796 light blade) and fully sharpened. Obviousy the style of sword combat was different with Indian regiments and warfare, but the popularity of the blade was such that in shape (size varied) it remained popular in Indian service for over a century. Minus a head or cleaved to the teeth may well have proved just as fatal as a thrust.

Gordon

**L. Braden** · 03-06-2012, 01:46 PM

Right you are! Did anyone ever ask Brack, Warnery, Verdy, Burton, and the numerous others who claimed that "the cutting sword is not a deadly weapon" how many men survived after having an artery severed or a limb lopped off, or how many had their heads cut off and lived to tell about it?! The ignorance of these so-called "authorities" was incredible!

**Yves Casa** · 03-07-2012, 11:15 AM

Hello
As I said on previous reply i believe a lot on swords arguments are pure propaganda on each side of the channel... I did publish an article on my site on curved or straight blade http://swordscollection.blogspot.com/ on the menu at the bootom.
But let me relates the following from a french Lieutenant Chevalier
“... nous vîmes accourir... un régiment de cavalerie anglais... pour nous charger, ils ne pouvaient connaître notre nombre parce-que nous étions en colonne serrée par escadron : “laissez-les venir, dirent nos généraux, mais pas de coups de sabre, des coups de pointe, de bons coups de pointe.” Ils arrivent sur nous avec leurs habits rouges, perchés sur leurs chevaux, ivres d’eau-de-vie et la latte à la main, faisant voler à droite et à gauche leur mauvais sabre... Nous nous ouvrons un peu... ils entrent... et, en moins de dix minutes, il ne restait pas un seul habit rouge à cheval, ce beau régiment, qui, je crois, était de la Garde Royale fut entièrement effacé...”.

In few words...he said they regiment destroyed a Horse guard regiment in a few moments because of the superiority of their swords! it is true than here Lieutennt Chevalier is teasing about the 1796 Heavy cavalry pattern not the light cavalry one.

As David saif the key was the weight horse, the training of the swordman, his horseman skills...and then the weapon.....! but i have one 1796 Light cavalry sword and it s a hell of a good weapon! half the weight of a french AN XI light cavalry saber
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...ers-sabre.html
Best regards
Yves

**DanR** · 05-06-2012, 08:15 AM

It's freezing cold....I am a cuirassier of the French army...my regiment is heading towards I don't know where in Bohémia....all I know is that we are riding for weeks now.
My cuirass is killing me, the lining and my shoulder boards are not enough to prevent the movements of the plates....and my helmet dangling at the trot of my horse is banging my head.
I did not wash, shave or change my underwear for weeks....try to relieve yourself with all that attire and don't even think of lowering your pants more than a few seconds in that cold...only leaves or any kind of vegetation to clean me. By the way, my pants are supposed to be white....they are now multi coloured....I smell like a goat.
I have sores on the armpits and on my groin due to the chafing of my filthy clothes, I am starving, cold, my boots and pants still damp of the last brook crossing.
I sleep on the frozen ground wrapped in my great coat, the camp fire warming only half of my body....I started to cough yesterday...I think I have some fever.

We rejoin the army not far from an unknown village named Austerlitz.

And now, gentlemen, you expect from me to charge full tilt with a sabre model An XIII, 37½ " long blade, weighing a ton, an deliver deadly blows on a moving horse, to a moving opponent who, being not a sportsman , do not want to be stabbed....shame on him.

I practice iaï-jutsu; I am not sure I would be able to deliver a blow, carefully aiming with my katana the head of the non moving rubber practice torso of the dojo , with enough strength to reproduce the cut through a helmet, through the skull and right to the chin of an opponent.

I don't deny it did not happened.....there are lotery winners; but I believe that, after a battle, everything is embellished when the butchery is vanishing away.

And the reality must have been ten times worse.

**Ryan Sh** · 05-06-2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Yves Casa

Hello
As I said on previous reply i believe a lot on swords arguments are pure propaganda on each side of the channel... I did publish an article on my site on curved or straight blade http://swordscollection.blogspot.com/ on the menu at the bootom.
But let me relates the following from a french Lieutenant Chevalier
“... nous vîmes accourir... un régiment de cavalerie anglais... pour nous charger, ils ne pouvaient connaître notre nombre parce-que nous étions en colonne serrée par escadron : “laissez-les venir, dirent nos généraux, mais pas de coups de sabre, des coups de pointe, de bons coups de pointe.” Ils arrivent sur nous avec leurs habits rouges, perchés sur leurs chevaux, ivres d’eau-de-vie et la latte à la main, faisant voler à droite et à gauche leur mauvais sabre... Nous nous ouvrons un peu... ils entrent... et, en moins de dix minutes, il ne restait pas un seul habit rouge à cheval, ce beau régiment, qui, je crois, était de la Garde Royale fut entièrement effacé...”.

In few words...he said they regiment destroyed a Horse guard regiment in a few moments because of the superiority of their swords! it is true than here Lieutennt Chevalier is teasing about the 1796 Heavy cavalry pattern not the light cavalry one.

As David saif the key was the weight horse, the training of the swordman, his horseman skills...and then the weapon.....! but i have one 1796 Light cavalry sword and it s a hell of a good weapon! half the weight of a french AN XI light cavalry saber
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...ers-sabre.html
Best regards
Yves

What battle was this?

**Martin Read** · 09-28-2012, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan Sh

What battle was this?

I would ignore the reference to a "Royal Guard" regiment, all combatants tended to assume that their opponents were from elite units. At Waterloo an officer of the King's German Legion called the Scots Greys "Scotch Horse Guards" and he was in the same army!

To even the score for the 1796 HC sword, one Lifeguard dispatched two cuirassiers at Waterloo, whom he fought at the same time. The first he killed with a thrust to the throat, the second he decapitated with a backhand stroke (Memoires of Sgt. Tom Morris). The cuirassiers' long thrusting swords don't seem to have outclassed the 1796 pallasch in all encounters.

**Martin R John** · 11-08-2012, 07:24 AM

And here is one that came back again.
An old 1796 blade with the remains of a Crown and number plus the remains of W Deakin on the blade back at the fort. Blade now reduced to 31 inches in length but sharpened right up to the fort on the true edge.

Originally Posted by gordon byrne

Hi all,
Some decades later, and in India and not a complaint but an observation, the noted British Cavalry officer in name Captain Nolan took particular interest in the fearful wounds inflicted by native troopers swords; on close inspection, he found their swords to have British Dragoon type blades (the 1796 light blade) and fully sharpened. Obviousy the style of sword combat was different with Indian regiments and warfare, but the popularity of the blade was such that in shape (size varied) it remained popular in Indian service for over a century. Minus a head or cleaved to the teeth may well have proved just as fatal as a thrust.

Gordon

**mitch wilkins** · 07-04-2014, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by hc bright

This article

http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/cavalrycombat.php

for those who haven't read it, cites several memoir descriptions.

I can't imagine any sort of "official complaint" in those pre Hague convention days.

Just curious and, researching a bit concerning the 1796 as I've just aquired one.... but the link is dead. Anyone have a good one? a link to the article/thread cited above?

regards and thanks,
mitch