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Thread: Medieval Swordsmanship

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Medieval Swordsmanship

    Well I just got the book Medieval Swordsmanship, I can see why some say it's dated, I'll admit it's alittle hard to understand but I'll find it useful, I've been working with Guy Windsor's book Swordsman's Companion the past couple of months, so with some luck I'll be able use some basics in there to help with the stuff in by Mr.J.c. (not going to mention his name, I've seen the can of worms I've opened up by my ignorance and from now on I'm going to refer to you know who as Mr.J.C.,)

    thank you for all the suggestions and book mentions, you have been the most helpful forum I have ever Joined

  2. #2

    good luck

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlRutledge View Post
    Well I just got the book Medieval Swordsmanship, I can see why some say it's dated, I'll admit it's alittle hard to understand but I'll find it useful, I've been working with Guy Windsor's book Swordsman's Companion the past couple of months, so with some luck I'll be able use some basics in there to help with the stuff in by Mr.J.c. (not going to mention his name, I've seen the can of worms I've opened up by my ignorance and from now on I'm going to refer to you know who as Mr.J.C.,)

    thank you for all the suggestions and book mentions, you have been the most helpful forum I have ever Joined
    I'm sorry that you got such a bad first impression of our manners around here. I hope you find the books informative and if you need some help feel free to PM me. If I can't help you, I can point you in the direction of someone who can. Unlike some of the men around here (and other forums) I do not suffer from an overabundance of testosterone and ego nor do I deal in politics. Ah the joy of being a lady.

  3. #3

    Arrow Ringeck Books

    I suggest these two books by my fellow David Lindholm:

    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword
    Dealing with unarmoured longsword fighting.

    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Arts of Combat
    Dealing with armoured spear & longsword fighting; wrestling; and some sword & buckler.

    Published by Paladin Press, those are the superior interpretive texts for Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens via Ringeck which one may purchase.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hull View Post
    those are the superior interpretive texts for Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens via Ringeck which one may purchase.
    This is nothing more than your opinion. I think you may be a bit bias.

    I know I am too, but I try not to be...
    Travis

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Canaday View Post
    This is nothing more than your opinion. I think you may be a bit bias.

    I know I am too, but I try not to be...
    I have nothing against Lindholm, but I find Tobler much eaiser to follow. Lindholm's work is, in MY opinion, better for a more advanced student.
    1

  6. #6
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    politics, it is indeed in the air we all breathe, and how it stinks.

    but such is life

    again thank you for the suggestions, I am will more likely then not hunt down a Christian Tobler next, I have seen him highly mentioned in the threads I've come across using the search function. Though Lindholm seems well praised too.

    Angel S, I've seen yor pictures in threads I've come across, you are very beautiful. and my first impression was not at all.

    I appreciate your willingness to help.

    good health too all

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hull View Post
    I suggest these two books by my fellow David Lindholm:

    Published by Paladin Press, those are the superior interpretive texts for Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens via Ringeck which one may purchase.
    That's a rather sweeping statement Mr Hull, and your interpretation only.

    You're naturally entitled to your opinions and to make recommendations as you see fit, but please don't attempt to diminish or detract from the excellent work being done by other scholars who don't happen to be ARMA members.

    Honourably,

    Bob Brooks
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    That's a rather sweeping statement Mr Hull, and your interpretation only.

    You're naturally entitled to your opinions and to make recommendations as you see fit, but please don't attempt to diminish or detract from the excellent work being done by other scholars who don't happen to be ARMA members.

    Honourably,

    Bob Brooks
    Relax Mr. Brooks, it was obvious to me that Mr. Hull was just giving his opinion on what he felt was best. I don't think it had anything to do with being an ARMA member.

    Now that Mr. Hull has given us his recommendation, why don't you give us yours.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel S. View Post
    I don't think it had anything to do with being an ARMA member.
    Really?

    I'll give you my opinion: Christian Tobler's book, Secret's of German Swordsmanship is a superior interpretation of Ringeck. The B&W pictures may be a little tough at times, but *I think* it's the better book.

    Lindolm's books are definately worth getting... the drawings are great. Comparing the two author's translations and interpretations is a good idea; and can only help one to see the bigger picture of what's going on.

    My advice to Carl is pick up a copy of Fighting with the German Longsword, and read cover to cover a few times. Really study it. Get an idea of the fluidness of the system. Then you will have a firm base to build off of.
    Travis

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by George Hill View Post
    I have nothing against Lindholm, but I find Tobler much eaiser to follow. Lindholm's work is, in MY opinion, better for a more advanced student.
    I have to say though that I had no trouble with Lindholm. Mr. Tobler's books are good too.

  11. #11
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    First off never having met John Clements or had any real contact with his organisation I have no pro or anti ARMA bias! ‘Medieval Swordsmanship’ was the first WMA book I bought, because it was, at the time, the only book available that dealt in any depth with sword and shield fighting (my area of interest). I read the book avidly and despite finding some of the authors constant disparaging of other ‘sword’ users (stage fighters, SCA etc) a little annoying, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It opened my eyes to a number of aspects of swordsmanship often overlooked in re-enactment fighting (the source of my interest) and the fact that there was a WMA community in existence at all. I do feel though that the book has dated considerably since publication, there is now much better material available and to be honest I can’t remember the last time I picked up ‘Medieval Swordsmanship’, I’m not slagging ‘Medieval Swordsmanship’ off, but as with every discipline research and understanding has moved on in the near decade since it was written.
    Who on another forum is called Oswulf

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel S. View Post
    Relax Mr. Brooks, it was obvious to me that Mr. Hull was just giving his opinion on what he felt was best. I don't think it had anything to do with being an ARMA member.

    Now that Mr. Hull has given us his recommendation, why don't you give us yours.
    I suggest you re-read his post.

    In the meantime, please let me paraphrase the most salient comment with regards.

    "Published by Paladin Press, those are the superior interpretive texts for Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens via Ringeck which one may purchase."

    No qualifier given to the above underlined, not even so much as an "In my opinion ...."

    I'm sorry, but this issue has been raised before regarding Mr Hull's posts on SFI, which come across as rather authoritarian, terse and haughty.

    Honourably,

    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  13. #13
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    Mr Canaday has hit the nail on the head - get both and compare the interpretations but also get the original text for yourself and any number of the translations which have been done.

    I don't like the suggestion that there are unquestionable authorities on any of the sources at this early stage of WMA's revival.

    In terms of recommending a book to start with, you have to first determine what you want to achieve.

    For a thorough guide on body mechanics and a sound introduction to medieval longsword, I would suggest Guy Windsor's excellent Swordsman's Companion.

    Christian Tobler's interpretations on specific period texts are equally admirable, as are David Lindholm's.

    With regard to "Medieval Swordsmanship" by John Clements, it's my opinion that this tome is well past its sell-by date and should be avoided.

    Honourably,

    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  14. #14
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    i prefer knightly art of the lognsword, but i had been intensivly training befor it and understood many of the consepts. i was exposed to tolblers book at the same time. my opinion would be to begin with tobler, he explains everything very well, after you have gone through tobler and gotten the idea i would move on the the knightly art of the longsword.

    just my 2 cents

    i agree that the book should be updated
    Last edited by Sean Belair; 03-12-2007 at 02:50 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Belair View Post
    i prefer knightly art of the lognsword, but i had been intensivly training befor it and understood many of the consepts. i was exposed to tolblers book at the same time. my opinion would be to begin with tobler, he explains everything very well, after you have gone through tobler and gotten the idea i would move on the the knightly art of the longsword.

    just my 2 cents

    i agree that the book should be updated
    You make it sound as though Lindolm's book is somehow more advanced than Tobler's. "Knightly Art" and "Secrets" are different interpretations, and one could argue which is better, but I don't see how one is more advanced than the other.

    I assume you are recommending "Fighting with the German Longsword" for the beginner; as opposed to Lindolm's "Knightly Art" book. I do agree with that. I think most would agree that is the best book to start out with.
    Travis

  16. #16
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    Knightly art of the Longsword, got it,

    you know surprisingly this reminds me of some of the Asatru forums I've been on. Some of you who do/did viking reinactment might have heard of Asatru. From the translations of the terms I've seen it literally means " true to the Aesir" now how accurate is that I haven't the slightest. But for those curious it's a form "neo"-paganism. Folks I should tell you, with alot of Asatrumen calling a neo-paganism will get you some nasty looks. I only use the word very loosely here. Asatru is what's known as a New Religious Movement that is attempting to reconstruct the Religion of Viking era Scandanavia. One often heard quote in Asatru is " Asatru is religion with homework," I often saw people on the forums debating about what source or translation about this ritual or that god just like you guys debate about sources on W.M.A. Infact I've noticed this trend alot in anything having to do with Reconstructing any facet of European life before the 18th century. Whether it's about clothing, music, religion, or what have you. It's almost as if people really didn't do significant production of books before the Enlightenment. Though folks I'm no historian, that'll probably have to change, huh?

    so let me see here I practice a religion with homework and now I'm going to start practicing a martial art with homework, nice

  17. #17

    Exclamation Blimey!

    Desirous of a positive qualifying statement? How about this:

    David Lindholm knows how to fight, and shows one how to do it with his interpretation of Liechtenauer via Ringeck.
    Last edited by Alexander Chin; 03-13-2007 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Comments neither helpful nor on-topic have been removed.

  18. #18
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    Blimey!

    Here's a few positive qualifying statements:

    Christian Tobler knows how to fight, and shows one how to do it with his interpretation of Liechtenauer via Ringeck, Döbringer, Goliath, Kal, Ott the Jew, and Talhoffer.

    Both David Lindholm & Christian Tobler's books are great to have.

    Angel is a Babe. And likes swords...

    I'm very envous of Schola Gladiatoria for having her as a member.

    My first WMA book was "Medieval Swordsmanship", but I haven't looked at it in years as it is dated and surpassed by much better work (please see "Both David Lindholm & Christian Tobler's books are great to have" along with all the other books that have been published in the last few years).

    Jeffrey, it may be your writing style, but it does come across a bit "authoritarian, terse and haughty" even to me, and I'z just some po' old backswordsman from the Frozen Hell of Alaska.

    Cheers,

    David Teague
    Last edited by David A Teague; 03-13-2007 at 12:19 AM.
    David Teague
    Scholar of the Highland Broadsword
    Free Scholar/Instructor -Selohaar Fechtschule
    The Historic Recrudescence Guild

    ""Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hull View Post
    David Lindholm knows how to fight, and shows one how to do it with his interpretation of Liechtenauer via Ringeck.
    and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hull View Post
    ...those are the superior interpretive texts for Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens via Ringeck which one may purchase.
    These two statements mean totally different things. The first one is probably quite true (I have never seen Lindolm fight, but I will assume he knows how.), while the latter is debatable.
    Travis

  20. #20
    I'd like to compliment all for remaining civil during this discussion.

    Just a reminder: if you make an unsupported or unsubstantiated claim it is an opinion and should be interpreted as such. Everyone here is entitled to express opinions, the relative merit(s) of which should be discussed without enmity.

    I have removed posts and remarks which are not on-topic.

    If you have personal differences to discuss, please do so off-line or via PM.
    Last edited by Alexander Chin; 03-13-2007 at 06:39 PM.
    Euthenist, Exorcist, Utilitarianist

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hull View Post
    .... And Brooks: Maybe you should refrain from badgering Ms. Angel S.
    She has done nothing bad to you.
    Badgering? Not in the slightest. I simply replied to her post.

    I see I'm not worthy of a 'Mr' in your response, Mr Hull.

    Here in England, it's considered quite rude to refer to someone by their surname alone when you are unaquainted with them personally, unless they are a schoolchild.

    Perhaps you should enrol in an etiquette class - it may help to improve the tone of your posts here at SFI.

    Honourably,

    Mr Brooks
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    Here in England, it's considered quite rude to refer to someone by their surname alone when you are unaquainted with them personally, unless they are a schoolchild.
    Well, there is Mark Donnelly who prefers to be called Donnelly. But then he's an American in the UK, so .... Oh, I don't know

    On the original question, I think that the more interpretations that you can get hold of the better (generally). There aren't any real "authorities" on these subjects, otherwise they'd be called Master (see a different thread )

    (PS: The ARMA baiting does get boring )

    Cheers,

    Mark

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Lancaster View Post

    (PS: The ARMA baiting does get boring )

    Cheers,

    Mark
    Oh, here we go again. Let's turn it into something it's not.

    When someone posts unqualified statements as fact, then they are open to be challenged on it, that's all.

    It's becoming a rather sad state of affairs when you can do the above for fear of it being misconstrued as petty politics or "baiting" and then having a valid debate shut down and locked.

    I'm done with this thread anyway, before things get even sillier.

    Honourably,

    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    Oh, here we go again. Let's turn it into something it's not.
    Hey Bob,

    We're all entitled to an opinion, even me

    I responded to Carl's original question and added my own thoughts on something that I find boring. I wasn't "getting at" Carl, but he's obviously picked up a negative and this is sad for a new member to the community.

    Rest assured that I will continue to give my opinion in a (hopefully) balanced manner.

    Thanks,

    Mark

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    So who, in your opinion, was baiting ARMA?
    Would you like me to compile a thread list and then PM you? That way we don't knock this topic off-track.

    Thanks,

    Mark

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