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Thread: same old ray same old way

  1. #1

    same old ray same old way

    We've all heard descriptions of how to cut and fit samegawa. Most involve an intense struggle between man and beast, usually ending in photo-omote.

    first photohere: light through the skin. omote. where is the gap on the other side?

    2. prep a guide block. plane a straight edge by removing wood from the center outward until the blade projection runs free, plane full length a time or two and check.
    straight! I say mark it so it doesn't get lost.

    3. clamp the skin between the fence and a bottom board. For nodely skin use a cork backed straightedge to insure even clamping without damage or slipping. HIP style a folded paper towell is used to cushion the scrap nodes.
    Pictured is the replaceable blade "beading saw" it's a killer for horn and bone(after it has served a short tour with wood and dulls a liltte) the short blade rides and controls easily along the fence.

    cut with the blade against the guide fence, right.

    4. Marked for final dimension -Sometimes you just want a line to check things out. This is an ink line stretched over the "bench" top and stuck so it stays taut. lift the line and slip the skin under; align the ticks and snap.

    5.OIC you smudged it. Usually happens I guess. Goody, the ink will wipe off cleanly if you have a damp cloth handy. If it werent for posing the ink on the line would not have dried and the line would be sweet.
    (or very messy until one learns the inklines nature)
    Last edited by KevinT; 07-09-2007 at 10:31 PM.

  2. #2

    lost my pictures.

    "Folks We May Need Some Emergency Surgery Right Here In The Studio"

    or a mod. pictures now?



    Oh there we go. (Still haven't learned to do those giant pics like some do, they still get kicked back Too large.????)
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by KevinT; 07-09-2007 at 10:22 PM.

  3. #3
    Light through the ura, skin folded into a flat tube held with clear tape.

    I think this will close up nice. There's a little line I see, but really it's taped from the back and will close to nigh on invisible when glued.


    Sorry for using scrap. The # 4 skin is going on my bamboo yari shaft.

    Funny story time: Being fresh out of my usual Tshirt scraps tie cords I grabbed up some stray cotton ito. Naturally it got damp and stained the skin.
    Never thought of that.
    The wind whistling through my ears seemed to whisper: dooon't bleeeach the saaaamaaayyyy
    Crazy wind, bleach makes everything white.
    well you can still see the stains on the main piece (not pic'd)and now it's much browner. I didnt know what I know.

    far easier than modern approaches huh?

    hope it helps. cheers
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by KevinT; 07-09-2007 at 10:34 PM.

  4. #4
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    Well,
    There's a tool they used to use to cut the Same, it was much like that giant paper cutter your kindergarten art teacher had...
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
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    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    Well,
    There's a tool they used to use to cut the Same, it was much like that giant paper cutter your kindergarten art teacher had...
    Know where you can get a "node cracker" ?

    I am still looking forward to your "light of the moon" S and S post. Maybe stick it here?
    Maybe you are tired
    and can lend your book to me. I'm no spine cracker

    .... send it right back with a gift of appreciation. Mr. Eliis

  6. #6
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    Hey Kevin- you're not by chance related to Gary Busey are you?

    I am going to be cutting some same' up in the next couple days so your sense of timing is impeccable. Thanks!
    "Without a sign his sword the brave man draws,
    And asks no omen but his country’s cause."

    ---The Iliad of Homer, Book xii, Line 283


    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner; Liberty is a well-armed lamb."
    ---Benjamin Franklin

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinT View Post
    Know where you can get a "node cracker" ?

    I am still looking forward to your "light of the moon" S and S post. Maybe stick it here?
    Maybe you are tired
    and can lend your book to me. I'm no spine cracker

    .... send it right back with a gift of appreciation. Mr. Eliis
    Ok, well, it's not *that* specific, but does suggest soaking 3 days in winter, and 1 in summer.

    The spine's already having issues, I gotta fix it at some point...

    satcho.com can find you a copy if you ask nicely
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  8. #8
    It's been lost 3 years I don't think you'll really miss it.

    If I were just a random person
    there might be a "chance" Jerry, but I'm not random I'm me.
    so i never leave things like that to chance.

    I was gonna leave you with a Busey quote but I don't need him to do that.

    I did find this:
    "Gary has some weird **** to say. Having studied his utterances for some time, I have come to three conclusions: 1) he loves the art of storytelling, 2) he really thinks that what he's saying is profound, and 3) he's mostly insane..."

  9. #9
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    Wow, thats "alot" of work just to cut some same. All I do is soak it for about 40 - 60 minutes depending on the skin then take my trusty Buck knife and cut right through it. With a wet enough skin and a little muscle, it cuts clean and straight.

  10. #10
    I have never found that to be the case Spencer. In all I spent less than 5 minutes doing the actual work.

    I invite you to show the same sort of picture. that doesn't have a ragged edge from nodes clinging. just butted no overlapping, no extra sanding etc. the pictures are the best way i could show that even light does not escape, what you do see leaking is much smaller than the thickness of paper.

    The nodes never seem to soften, clicking and cracking when knife cut.

    I much appreciate your observations and experience. Thanks for responding.

    Edit: i would like to add that I have never spent too much effort to use a knife or snips other than to see what it does.
    Last edited by KevinT; 07-15-2007 at 11:55 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinT View Post
    It's been lost 3 years I don't think you'll really miss it.

    If I were just a random person
    there might be a "chance" Jerry, but I'm not random I'm me.
    so i never leave things like that to chance.

    I was gonna leave you with a Busey quote but I don't need him to do that.

    I did find this:
    "Gary has some weird **** to say. Having studied his utterances for some time, I have come to three conclusions: 1) he loves the art of storytelling, 2) he really thinks that what he's saying is profound, and 3) he's mostly insane..."
    This is a joke if you don't already know. I guess i do go on at times and probably don't make a lick of sense

  12. #12
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    I've been known to use a band saw...

    last time I cut a skin, I made a paper template, undersized it slightly, and then traced it out on the back side of the skin. I then took a stright edge and an exacto knife to it, cut most of the way thru, and then cracked it. Worked nicely.
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  13. #13
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    Haha if I had seen this thread 2 days ago I could have posted a picture of the same right after I cut it. Now its already been shaped up more and isn't how it was when I cut it. My knife cuts right through the nodes, doesn;t leave any hanging or what not. Thats why I love buck knives, the ones ive used have a "very" tough and sharp blade.

    But hey, congrats on finding a way that works for you.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    I've been known to use a band saw...

    last time I cut a skin, I made a paper template, undersized it slightly, and then traced it out on the back side of the skin. I then took a stright edge and an exacto knife to it, cut most of the way thru, and then cracked it. Worked nicely.
    Undersized? Was the skin soaked or dry?

    I've found starting the cut from the underside (un-noded) side to be helpful. You can then pare around the nodes or for quik-n-dirty you can buy a set of those "EMT" serrated scissors that will cut thru them (crunch, snap). \

    One of the best rayskin wraps I saw was on an antique dao. There was no overwrap or ito to obscure a clear view of the seam. The original wrapper had actually interleaved the individual nodes to create a near invisible seam. Lotta time and patience I would imagine.
    Euthenist, Exorcist, Utilitarianist

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Chin View Post
    Undersized? Was the skin soaked or dry?

    I've found starting the cut from the underside (un-noded) side to be helpful. You can then pare around the nodes or for quik-n-dirty you can buy a set of those "EMT" serrated scissors that will cut thru them (crunch, snap). \

    One of the best rayskin wraps I saw was on an antique dao. There was no overwrap or ito to obscure a clear view of the seam. The original wrapper had actually interleaved the individual nodes to create a near invisible seam. Lotta time and patience I would imagine.
    It was a dry skin. Undersized by like millimeter, because it always stays a little stretched when it's glued.

    The nodes didn't break and it ended up intertwining a little, until it dried out.

    I got the dry cutting tip a few years ago from someone.. I forget who...

    To paraphrase "sword and same," "Same, no matter the age, must always be cut from the back, or unnoded side."



    Here's an interesting picture to support the discussion.
    Last edited by Jeff Ellis; 07-16-2007 at 04:00 AM.
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer Schehr View Post
    Wow, thats "alot" of work just to cut some same. All I do is soak it for about 40 - 60 minutes depending on the skin then take my trusty Buck knife and cut right through it. With a wet enough skin and a little muscle, it cuts clean and straight.
    using a straight edge or not? if so clamped or hand ?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    It was a dry skin. Undersized by like millimeter, because it always stays a little stretched when it's glued.

    The nodes didn't break and it ended up intertwining a little, until it dried out.

    I got the dry cutting tip a few years ago from someone.. I forget who...

    To paraphrase "sword and same," "Same, no matter the age, must always be cut from the back, or unnoded side."



    Here's an interesting picture to support the discussion.
    It says horn powder, what do you think the chances are they mean antler.

    Intertwined? That sounds like the same thing i've seen, some grains are cut, some remain as individual "cling ons" that's what I didn't like about my knife attempts. Is that what you mean?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinT View Post
    using a straight edge or not? if so clamped or hand ?
    No straight edge. Once its done soaking, I turn it over, wipe off the excess water, and outline what I want to cut out. Then i take out my knife, put tension on it with my left hand and cut right through it with my right hand. Ive never had problems with nodes clinging on, and Ive done this with high grade samegawa.

    EDIT, thats a pretty nifty pic Jeff.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Chin View Post
    Undersized? Was the skin soaked or dry?

    I've found starting the cut from the underside (un-noded) side to be helpful. You can then pare around the nodes or for quik-n-dirty you can buy a set of those "EMT" serrated scissors that will cut thru them (crunch, snap). \

    One of the best rayskin wraps I saw was on an antique dao. There was no overwrap or ito to obscure a clear view of the seam. The original wrapper had actually interleaved the individual nodes to create a near invisible seam. Lotta time and patience I would imagine.
    Hi Alexander,
    Pare around(?); from your first paragraph, you are refering to the technique you saw on the dao or something different?

    I like shears, scissors, snips whatever you want to call them for rough sizing

    Have you guys seen that one saya online somewhere, there's not too many sources, and we probably seen them all, it has yanone perhaps made of shakudo inlaid in the same' with a shakudo rib along the omote which the same' is butted up to or perhaps there are barbs to hold it. the only example i have seen of that treatment, but it is a kool looking saya.

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