Secrets......Secrets!!....Secrets??? *g*

[Angus Trim]

Just about two weeks ago, I was reminded about how ridiculous some of this is.....

A fellow in Hong Kong made mention that he had been approached by some mainland sword manufacturers to acquire a couple of his American made swords, so that they could copy them....... and he refused to protect his vendor's "secrets"..........

*g*

What secrets??? Blade geometry? Edge geometry? Dynamic balance? Steel? Heat treat?............

What makes a sword perform the way it does? Is it a modern day secret that only a chosen few know?

Well, its my experience, that heat treat and steel are over rated. What you need for a reasonably good sword is an edge hard enough to stay sharp under use, and a "body" that has enough resiliance that the blade won't fail under reasonable use..........

Which steel is best? Do we need to keep that a secret? How about the process of heat treating?.

The funny thing is, there a few folks keeping "secrets" here where it might really give them an edge, but in a couple places, these "secrets" are just because the concern does not want to answer questions when a problem crops up.......

Secret anybody? *g*

Once upon a time, I was really into this "secret" stuff too. Then something kool happened, I was questioned by a fellow I know locally about my heat treating, the steel I was using, and where the heat treating was being done.......And about six weeks later I walked into Pac Met {the heat treater in question}, and nearly tripped over several freshly heat treated ground blades that had been heat treated to "my spec".....*g*

Funny thing is, that when finished, they weren't close to the same quality.

So, the steel, nor the heat treat "secrets", didn't help this new swordmaker, nor is this new maker still around.........

How about, how one finishes a sword? In my case, I think harmonically, but don't mention that much anymore, because of the politics that arise at times over this..... and its safe to say that I'm the only one in the game that does this as the primary interest in doing a sword. Yes, there's a couple others that take it into account, but not to the same degree I do......

So, is this then a big secret? If a sword or three of mine wound up in a forge in China or India, does that mean that all of a sudden that the quality of their own designs will improve, and there won't be an American or European sword industry left?

Well, my opinion on this is, that sword design, and sword making are related, but not the same. Each designer winds up developing their own philosophy, and when the ego tells them they're "good", other makers only influence what they'll do, just a little........

Yep, there's room to grow, and everyone will tell you that. And everyone {swordmakers, smiths, and designers} that is confident of their skills will secretly {and maybe not secretly} feel they're better than their neighbor, and will only be able to learn a little from him......*g*

Ego, its called ego........and we all have it........

When politically correct, we never mention this, and we'll never mention it when in mixed company or when "political correctness" is necessary.......

Will sending an American designed and made sword to China greatly influence the industry there? I'd be shocked if it would......frankly if I was a designer in one of the better forges there, I'd be a bit amused by that assumption, and slightly insulted by that thought.

After all, there are a lot of antiques available in China, kats, daos, and gian, that will tell a lot of the story of swords...... There's also a couple of collections of euro swords there too.........

Distal taper? Profile taper? Curve? Edge geometry?

Ohh, come on.........

The Chinese forges have made a lot of improvement in the last few years, and I'm sure that the quality will continue to improve. But I seriously doubt that the exposure of American design to Chinese manufacture will destroy the American sword industry.......

For one thing, volume. The Chinese manufacturers want an order for 500 units when a US importer wants to bring in a new product. Can that be done on smaller quantities under certain circumstances? I'm sure it can, and I'm sure it has.......

US makers and smiths work on different scales. Even the largest of the US makers {Albion} makes less.......

And this is where I feel the US market will survive, and possibly prosper. Quality....not so much for the design {functional aspect only considered here}, but for the attention to detail you can do with a smaller quantity, and for some folks the aesthetic quality of their work.......... Or can you say Howard Clark, Rick Barrett, Kevin Cashen, Vince Evans, Tinker, John Lundemo....... and to a lesser but still high level, Albion and A&A........

Secrets? Well, I believe that Kevin wrote a long thread on his "secrets", Vince's secret really is his artistic talent and work ethic, Tinker wrote his secrets once, etc.................hasn't spawned a lot of copies......

Performance? Well, that has to do with consistency....and a smaller concern can usually be more consistent than the larger..........

No secrets....no super duper way to do a distal taper {besides, if you buy a sword, you can measure it to a very close degree}........*g*

[M. A. Beardmore]

Superb post, sir :sensei rei:.

If I had to excerpt just one fragment of paraphrase from it I would select:

"What is the secret?" ... "Talent".

I recently bought a Hanwei Bastard Sword for £100 - I wish I'd not bothered and bought something from one of the rather better European smiths instead. Would I have paid more if I'd done that? Yes, I would. But as I'm going to have to get another one anyway because the Hanwei product is so poor I'm actually worse off for not having followed the "Talent" truism so ably noted above.

[Tomaz Lazar]

Well, its my experience, that heat treat and steel are over rated. What you need for a reasonably good sword is an edge hard enough to stay sharp under use, and a "body" that has enough resiliance that the blade won't fail under reasonable use..........

Couldn't agree more. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is just how "bad" most historic swords are in terms of steel and heat treat. Heterogenous steel forge welded from billets, with numerous slag inclusions and faulty welds, poor heat treat (or sometimes none at all) with "soft" edges and wildly differing hardness levels across the blade... In short, "substandard" swords that very few customers today would ever buy - yet unlike our modern day toys they were actually used and tested to the extreme in the field of battle where they did the job quite well. Obviously metallurgy and the knowledge of metalworking have improved dramatically since the middle ages but it really helps to put things in a perspective when we obsess over Rockwell hardness, bainite and whatnot.

[Ty N.]

Keep it secret, keep it safe...

[Ty N.]

I think that, in terms of quality, antique and ancient swords varied a lot in quality, as is the case with modern swords.

Pieces made for the very rich and powerful usually reflected their pedigree, and vice versa. Of course, the most expensive swords rarely if ever saw any action on the battlefield. They were status symbols, family heirlooms and/or conversation pieces.

The yataghan of Suleiman the Magnificent is just as magnificent today as it was in the 16th century. Many nodachi blades created as temple offerings are in pristine condition because they spent centuries sitting in display cases, and the sheer finesse of their design is preserved unscathed.

The richly ornamented swords of the Migration Era did not fare well against the ravages of the elements, but many of their gold and silver hilts (and also the remnants of superb pattern-welded blades) reflect a fantastic degree of artisanship that existed during harsh and brutal times.

[Roger Hooper]

Making a sword involves science and craft, but a good fabricator also needs to be an artist. I think you have to use inspiration and experimentation in the way you vary a sword's geometry for each new attempt - where a couple of tenths of an inch this way or that may result in a weapon that is alive in the hand or one that feels dead.

I guess any sword can be closely measured and copied, but without the swordmaker's own artistry, any new designs will result in an inferior creation.

[Ty N.]

In terms of actual metal, I've come to expect specific qualities from different smiths. I know that if I have a genuine Atrim blade, it will be resilient, and can withstand a lot of punishment with only an occasional scratch. Tinker's blades tend to have a higher Rockwell hardness, but are also resilient and will tolerate heavy use. The higher polish is aesthetically pleasing. An Odin blade will be very sharp (you might cut yourself just looking at it), but never brittle, even with a relatively high Rockwell hardness.

[Will S.]

Why do I suddenly feel like my aspiration to make custom swords, including forged blades (I just do hilt upgrades as of now) is pointless, fruitless and without hope? Probably haven't had enough success yet to have sufficient ego to carry me through...

Great post Gus, gives us alot to ponder.

*goes out to workshop and re-examines details, weights, and "balance" of latest commission in progress*

Will S.

[Angus Trim]

In terms of actual metal, I've come to expect specific qualities from different smiths. I know that if I have a genuine Atrim blade, it will be resilient, and can withstand a lot of punishment with only an occasional scratch. Tinker's blades tend to have a higher Rockwell hardness, but are also resilient and will tolerate heavy use. The higher polish is aesthetically pleasing. An Odin blade will be very sharp (you might cut yourself just looking at it), but never brittle, even with a relatively high Rockwell hardness.

Hi Ty

You're talking about premium makers though.......A functional heat treat, and one I would consider good for a user, is one that would have the blade hardened and tempered to 45 to 48rc. This can give a blade, depending on other important factors, the resiliance one needs, and the potential for a decent edge. It should hold up to contemporary targets, like water filled 2L pop bottles, tatami mats, and 1/4 inch plywood. Yes, it'll scratch, and yes you'll have to resharpen it if you intend to continue using it, but so?

Windlass and Hanwei both have blades that feature these characteristics......

[Angus Trim]

Why do I suddenly feel like my aspiration to make custom swords, including forged blades (I just do hilt upgrades as of now) is pointless, fruitless and without hope? Probably haven't had enough success yet to have sufficient ego to carry me through...

Great post Gus, gives us alot to ponder.

*goes out to workshop and re-examines details, weights, and "balance" of latest commission in progress*

Will S.

Hi Will

I wouldn't give up.......... one of the current greats, Howard Clark, made mention once that its easier to become proficient in something like this, if you stand on the shoulders of giants.........He was referring to the deceased makers of antiques....... but you could also look at the large body of knowledge that has been "rediscovered" in the last 8 years too......

The current "giants", guys like Kevin Cashen, Vince Evans, Tink, John Lundemo.....well they all started somewhere..........

[Angus Trim]

Making a sword involves science and craft, but a good fabricator also needs to be an artist. I think you have to use inspiration and experimentation in the way you vary a sword's geometry for each new attempt - where a couple of tenths of an inch this way or that may result in a weapon that is alive in the hand or one that feels dead.

I guess any sword can be closely measured and copied, but without the swordmaker's own artistry, any new designs will result in an inferior creation.

Interesting thoughts........and how true in my opinion......

I remember reading somewhere, comments about how current copies are true to antiques within millimeter precision.....

.0394 inches? Precision? Take that out to a volume in a typical sword blade, and that could be 4 to 6 ounces different, just in the blade, or 15 to 20% different, just in the blade.......making the difference between a nice looking clunker, and a masterpiece maybe..........

[John Maddox Roberts]

I've said it before: The softest steel is way harder than the hardest flesh. That's probably the criterion the ancients had in mind when it came to a battlefield sword. The sagas frequently mention blades that had to be straightened beneath a foot. Better than breaking. And, if you look at the blades in museums, they were rarely perfectly straight. Sight down the blade of even a fine rapier in a museum collection and you'll see that it wobbles around like a drunken sidewinder. But it worked fine. They weren't grinding them out of bar stock and the heat treating was irregular at best. An ancient smith studying modern swords wouldn't be surprised at their hardness or toughness so much as how straight and consistent they are.

[Tomaz Lazar]

You're talking about premium makers though.......A functional heat treat, and one I would consider good for a user, is one that would have the blade hardened and tempered to 45 to 48rc. This can give a blade, depending on other important factors, the resiliance one needs, and the potential for a decent edge. It should hold up to contemporary targets, like water filled 2L pop bottles, tatami mats, and 1/4 inch plywood. Yes, it'll scratch, and yes you'll have to resharpen it if you intend to continue using it, but so?

Yup, a lot of good medieval swords were hardened in that same range (plus there is evidence of deliberate slack quenching and other heat treating practices that would be scoffed at today by professional metallurgists). I've often wondered about that as 45HRc seems quite soft. But at that hardness the blade is going to be extremely tough and able to take a lot of punishment. I suppose you could get away with tempering a sword blade a little harder with modern alloyed steels and still get the same toughness and flexibility, though.

And, if you look at the blades in museums, they were rarely perfectly straight. Sight down the blade of even a fine rapier in a museum collection and you'll see that it wobbles around like a drunken sidewinder. But it worked fine. They weren't grinding them out of bar stock and the heat treating was irregular at best. An ancient smith studying modern swords wouldn't be surprised at their hardness or toughness so much as how straight and consistent they are.

I would second that, too. I think the medieval smiths were far more concerned with the sword as a whole rather than dissecting fairly unimportant cosmetic details. In this craft you can easily miss the forest for the trees. Modern replicas have to be straight and well finished because that's what the customers want. But few customers and even manufacturers understand swords well enough to know what to look for in terms of handling.

[Angus Trim]

Yup, a lot of good medieval swords were hardened in that same range (plus there is evidence of deliberate slack quenching and other heat treating practices that would be scoffed at today by professional metallurgists).

Maybe some metallurgists would scoff at this, but I'd bet most sword and blade smiths would not.......

I think that most swords made today around the world, are heat treated with some form of slack quench......There's some advantages to this, as well as disadvantages compared to the more modern harden, quench {fully} and temper method.......

For one thing, the blade does not typically get as hard as the fully quenched blade, and the slower air cool after the interrupt, acts a bit like a temper...

For another, there is less of a tendency to warp........

There's more........ suffice it to say, if done correctly, this can work pretty well for most sword blades......

Done incorrectly, you can have both a soft and brittle edge. You can have a blade that bends easy.....

And again, there's more........

[Neil Langley]

And again, there's more........

And that Gus is why I happily pay you and others of similar ability to make my swords

Neil

[Sam Salvati]

I am by no means just yet a proffessional, but here's my say. SEEING AS HOW swords are not made for sword to sword combat, unless you are talking baout sparring blunts. So swords can afford to have a higher RC hardness, making them hold an edge longer and have a stiff yet springy,,,,,,,spring, and also allow for a thinner cross section, which means a better cutter.

[Angus Trim]

I am by no means just yet a proffessional, but here's my say. SEEING AS HOW swords are not made for sword to sword combat, unless you are talking baout sparring blunts. So swords can afford to have a higher RC hardness, making them hold an edge longer and have a stiff yet springy,,,,,,,spring, and also allow for a thinner cross section, which means a better cutter.

Hi Sam

Yep, you've just pretty much stated what I do. The rockwell hardness of my blades is tested on the tang, right at the shoulder.... and the tolerance is 51 to 53rc. Tends to come out at 52 more often than not.......

Once upon a time, I left tool tabs down by the tip, of a few swords of a batch. They tested 53 rockwell on the tang, and 56 on the tab. So, they can be a bit harder towards the tip and at the edge. I don't "advertise" this, because I don't test for it all the time, and can't certify it. But this is why I can have as thin a crossection as I do, and as tight an edge as I do, and still have swords cut thru pork shoulders with very little edge wear.........

Yes, Tink's edges are very often around 58rc. I'm not sure what John's are, but very good. Kevin Cashen is also........

However, that's not the point.........

There are also many more expensive swords than the ATs that are closer to the 45 to 48rc. And they're still pretty good swords............

The point is, that the heat treat isn't what makes a sword more valuable all on its own.......

As you pointed out, it can help one come up with better results as far as the whole sword is concerned...........

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I am by no means just yet a proffessional, but here's my say. SEEING AS HOW swords are not made for sword to sword combat, unless you are talking baout sparring blunts. So swords can afford to have a higher RC hardness, making them hold an edge longer and have a stiff yet springy,,,,,,,spring, and also allow for a thinner cross section, which means a better cutter.

I hate to say it, but I disagree. You are correct that here is no need to make swords these days to stand up to sword-to-sword combat. But that's what every decent maker that I know does. To most of us if a sword won't stand up to the use that sword's of it's type were designed for then it's not a 'real' sword.

For the most part these days we have better, more consistant steel than in the old days. We have better, more consistant methods of heat treatment. This is what allows us to have higher hardness than was usual in ancient swords.

There's a local theatrical sword-play group. They buy swords from a variety of makers, de-sharpen them and use them for performance and practice. These swords are used an avarage of twice a week, and this group practices hard. They are more abusive of their swords than any WMA group that I know of. Some of them have been using their swords for 7-10 years or more and they are still going strong- despite being as hard as HRc58 at the cutting edge. The right modern alloys and the right heat treat coupled with 'ancient' engineering principles produces swords that can be harder than ancient swords and last just as well- or better. It doesn't always, but there is plenty of evidence that it can.

[Sam Salvati]

[QUOTE=Michael Tinker Pearce;931124]I hate to say it, but I disagree. You are correct that here is no need to make swords these days to stand up to sword-to-sword combat. But that's what every decent maker that I know does. To most of us if a sword won't stand up to the use that sword's of it's type were designed for then it's not a 'real' sword.

For the most part these days we have better, more consistant steel than in the old days. We have better, more consistant methods of heat treatment. This is what allows us to have higher hardness than was usual in ancient swords.

QUOTE]

I wasn't saying that the hilts should be crappier, nor should sparring swords be softer, and you are right with modern steel and heat treat consistency, we can have higher RC hardness and yet still have steel on steel swords, with NO WORRIES whatsoever about chipping snapping or breaking in any way. RC seems to not be that good of a thing to judge just what a sword can do.

[Angus Trim]

RC seems to not be that good of a thing to judge just what a sword can do.

Hi Sam

I want you to understand I'm not picking on you here.... its just that you said something here that is more true than you realize, and in more than one way.......

Rockwell numbers are almost meaningless today in our sword industry. Some makers toss numbers out there, that don't stand up to the "test". And even the test, if its a rockwell file, isn't that good. A rockwell file test is inherently inaccurate, and can give wildly inaccurate readings at times.........

Is a sword blade springy and resiliant {if western or equivalent}? Can the edge hold up to appropriate targets?

That's the real test..... unless one wants to get onto that slippery slope of comparing one brand or maker to another......... {and a slippery slope it is}

[Sam Salvati]

Hi Sam

I want you to understand I'm not picking on you here.... its just that you said something here that is more true than you realize, and in more than one way.......

Rockwell numbers are almost meaningless today in our sword industry. Some makers toss numbers out there, that don't stand up to the "test". And even the test, if its a rockwell file, isn't that good. A rockwell file test is inherently inaccurate, and can give wildly inaccurate readings at times.........

Is a sword blade springy and resiliant {if western or equivalent}? Can the edge hold up to appropriate targets?

That's the real test..... unless one wants to get onto that slippery slope of comparing one brand or maker to another......... {and a slippery slope it is}

Ahhaha no worries I totally understand what you are saying. You are correct, it seems RC cannot be the end all be all of on paper tests for wether a blade is good or is not. The REAL test would be to use the heck out of the blade, cutting properly on proper targets, and some improper targets depending on the make and model hehe. If it holds up, doesn't chip, doesn't bend, doesn't warp, holds a nice sharp edge during the whoel testing time and longer, and doesn't snap in two, then it really would only matter diddly what RC it is hehe.

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Right you are people- like many other measurements Hardness Rockwell C is only one of many considerations, not an absolute measure of a sword's quality. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is irrelevant; just that we shouldn't dismiss a sword because this number is 'low.' To paraphrase Sam real-world performancce trumps mere numbers.

[Angus Trim]

Right you are people- like many other measurements Hardness Rockwell C is only one of many considerations, not an absolute measure of a sword's quality. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is irrelevant; just that we shouldn't dismiss a sword because this number is 'low.' To paraphrase Sam real-world performancce trumps mere numbers.

Hi Michael

For a swordmaker, rockwell might not be irrelevant. For a sword enthusiast, picking a sword for an advertised rockwell number, it might be..........

As you know, many, many sword blades fall way short of the advertised rockwell number in real hardness, yet still make a reasonable blade..........

[Thomas Powers]

"I think the medieval smiths were far more concerned with the sword as a whole rather than dissecting fairly unimportant cosmetic details."

Let me just remind folks that a medieval/renaissance smith did not make swords.

Typically a sword blade was forged by a smith and his helpers---this may include heat treat and rough grinding. It would then go to another shop for polishing; another for hilting (often the cutler who would be the fellow arranging all the details and subcontracting out the work for the various stages) another for a scabbard and perhaps another for engraving or other ornamentation.

Different shops; often different guilds and if you were caught doing a different guild's work your shop could be destroyed by that guild.

It is only recently that sole authorship became the norm in swordmaking in the west---it still hasn't in the east where the bladesmith is *not* the polisher!

Even in the forging the rough work may be done by a journeyman and the finish forging by the master smith---a single person smithy would be like having only the surgeon in an operating room---just not very common at all.

Thomas