Where did the Pro forum go ?

[Steve Sells]

This used to be a forum for professionals as per the sticky, but lately its become the beginners forum, where did the pro forum go, or has it been abandoned ?

I see threads on a movie SLO and how to resize pics, and only one thread about real blades, and one about tools. What happened? or am I the only one to have noticed?

[Glen C.]

Hi Steve,

I have made mention of it here recently. No, you ar not the only one who has noticed. The only way to completely resolve it would be to turn it into a fully post approved subsection. I don't think anyone wants that. Least of all, moderators that would have to sift through it all to winnow the chaff.

One consolation would be to expand the time frame under which you view various subsections. The forum default is pretty limiting but you can change that at the bottom of the post index page, or permantly via your preferences in your control panel. Reading the forum back to the winter of 2001-2002 can be pretty interesting.

There is a sticky in the beginners section about bladesmithing as well.

The real solution might be to initiate discussions you feel are worthwile and encourage others to do likewise. I could shuffle all the craft from the General forum here but those folk would post here if they wanted to.

We could beat miscreants senseless about the head for invading and usurping the edicts laid down long ago. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a productive way to spend time.

Cheers

Hotspur; folk seem to have cabin fever and it's not even February yet

[justin king]

This forum seems to have been pretty lenient in the past about letting amatuers post topics and ask questions. I think this is a good thing as it has been a huge resourse for myself and others as we learn and perhaps move closer to professional or semi-professional blademaking.

On the other hand there should be some attention given to keeping things on topic and in the ballpark of the intended purpose of the forum. The "Home Improvements" forum is maybe better suited to some of the questions that pop up here regarding modification of production swords.

I guess it's up to the Mods to determine where the line is drawn. Better amatuer conversation than none at all, the professional traffic seems to have dropped off a bit lately and new blood is necessary to keep the craft alive.

[Bren Hadafan]

What is wrong with this being a question ground for beginners to ask the pros such as yourself Steve? I understand, I do not like new things too, but It is a BIG HUGE help to me and other nubies to be able to learn from you guys, who are so experienced, it is WONDERFUL.

Thanks for this help, and I hope this will continue.

[Steve Sells]

What is the use of me posting this, as you haven't paid much attention to us yet, but I will try.

If you want respect and help: start paying attention. I will do everything I can to help you or anyone, but when you are spreading BS, like 3 years sword making. I am not sure if you are a troll, or just vain.

If you would have followed directions and read the sticky's before posting, you would know not only that this is the pro forum, but that many of the question you have posted here, have been asked and answered already many times. You won't take the time to look for your answers, but rather expect us to take the time to read your posts and answer?

We have a beginners forum for beginners to post the basic questions. Many of us answer questions there as well. Part of the problem is that most of us have already answered your questions there.

It is hard to take you seriously when you refuse to read simple guidlines for posting or try to help yourself.

What is the use of seperate forum area's if people post anything everywhere? It makes it harder to find things. And to post a photo of a scrap of sheet metal and call it a sword on a pro forum talkes big brass ones too.

As a beginner I needed to be patted on the back and pointed in the right direction for improving, But I am selling blades in the real world with the big boys, and if my blades do not look 100% and function 100%, then I need to stop selling blades and go back to basic's. And If I can't see my blades faults, then no one will buy my product.

BS may work in High School, but not at the bank.

[Remy B]

Some rough comments there Steve, but i still would agree with it too...

[justin king]

Hi Steve,

Reading the forum back to the winter of 2001-2002 can be pretty interesting.

Yeah, many of the names from back then are long gone, makes me a little sentimental for the good old days. Just a browse turns up some very good topics and discussions though...beginners take note, if you are serious you have many, many hours worth of reading to do, this is as good a place as any to get started. There is enough info here and on the metallurgy forum to get one speaking the language and allow you to ask pointed and intelligent questions that are worthy of answers from professionals, and also to be sure the topic wasn't discussed last week...

[Bren Hadafan]

I don't see why he is mad! am I really that bad steve?

I think I shoudl go

[Andrew Harrington]

I don't see why he is mad! am I really that bad steve?

I think I shoudl go

yes...

Be humbled and REALLY try and see what Steve is saying. Reread it a couple times.

I'd say before you ask anymore questions about smithing and swords, try and google it. If you can't find the answer rephrase it. If you still can't find the answer use the search function here. Then ask in the beginners forum. You are a beginner. We all made mistakes when we started out.

See this as a lesson in a series of lessons to come. a VERY LOOOOOONG series.

Or keep going on as you have and continue your downward spiral here.

I'd say a breaks not a bad idea though.
Stay up

[Bren Hadafan]

ouch, I think I should leav SFI for good though, maybe not.

[Ruud B]

Sorry Bren,
Your post belong in the beginners forum.
The others are right, you have a lot to learn.. the way you are going now is down not up.

[justin king]

ouch, I think I should leav SFI for good though, maybe not.

Thats up to you, Bren. there is a great deal that can be learned here without ever typing a word. If you are looking for knowledge it is here, but like any other craft knowledge must be combined with practical experience before one aquires skill.
If you are looking for acknowledgement you must consider the atmosphere of the forum you are posting in-it is geared towards professionals and this should be respected, most who have managed to make a living at it have invested a great deal of their life in learning and it dosen't come easy or cheap.
My advice is to absorb as much as you can and apply it to your work. It will show in the long run but you have to be patient, persistent and humble.
I have been smithing blades for about 5 years now, and have sold custom daggers for serious money, but I have yet to forge a sword because quite frankly I'm not good enough yet.
Walk before you run or you shall surely fall.

[Bren Hadafan]

thanks, I think I was kinda depressed when I said that. But I don't think I will delete, I

[Bren Hadafan]

I willl kinda go back and forth between beginners and pros

[Andrew Harrington]

I willl kinda go back and forth between beginners and pros

I don't understand this post...If it's how I read it, it won't be appreciated by either party, those you deem beginners or pros, and is the attitude that got you here.

[Bren Hadafan]

No, no, no, no, no andrew. I mean between beginners sword forum and professional (this) sword forums. Not tlaking about anybody.

[Christian Borg]

Just to chime in question here now that the topic is "up and running" so to speak...

If I have this question about swordmaking and it's of a more advanced type, where should I post it? I mean, I don't make blades of any sort yet but the theoretical knowledge I've got is (at least what I can tell) pretty good. As for forging out a knife, I'd say I know how, I just have to try it. Now, I realise that's a bold statement but till I've tried and failed I don't think it's that inappropriate. However, I wont say it again before I post the pic of a finished blade...

So, to make things easier, questions that don't tend to be of more of a beginner's, should I post them here?
For example we can take the thread I posted somewhere about quenching in snow. I think I put it in Bladesmith Forum and at the time I thought it was right, but this thread kinda makes me rethink it...

[Bren Hadafan]

yeah

[John Regone]

If you want to check out incredible work on an almost daily basis, go to Don Fogg's forum,
http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?

[Andrew Harrington]

No, no, no, no, no andrew. I mean between beginners sword forum and professional (this) sword forums. Not tlaking about anybody.

Nope. It is indeed how I took it.

Just to chime in question here now that the topic is "up and running" so to speak...

If I have this question about swordmaking and it's of a more advanced type, where should I post it? I mean, I don't make blades of any sort yet but the theoretical knowledge I've got is (at least what I can tell) pretty good. As for forging out a knife, I'd say I know how, I just have to try it. Now, I realise that's a bold statement but till I've tried and failed I don't think it's that inappropriate. However, I wont say it again before I post the pic of a finished blade...

So, to make things easier, questions that don't tend to be of more of a beginner's, should I post them here?
For example we can take the thread I posted somewhere about quenching in snow. I think I put it in Bladesmith Forum and at the time I thought it was right, but this thread kinda makes me rethink it...

Alright....let's see here. First, You should try google then the search function then the beginners forum OR the general forum, if you feel your knowledge that advanced. If you do get around to making a knife instead of a silly statement, and still have a question, try google then the search function...then the beginners forum OR the general forum. If you start making a hobby of it or a profession, and still have questions and all of the above have been exhausted, then ask here, share here, be welcomed.

Really though, the statement about knowing how to make a blade without ever even attempting it is silly and cheapens the art.

So, I'd say no.

[Remy B]

Crap... this remind me, hope i didnt bug anyone when i made a thread about the first habaki i made here some time ago...

[Graham Fredeen]

I hope I am not overstepping any bounds with throwing my opinion in here, having only been posting on this site for a short time. However I have presented examples of my work which I believe show my skill classify me as a "professional" and merit my posting on this forum, and therefore I will throw down what I have to say.

I suppose I can see both sides of this argument, beginners are only out trying to learn and one cant hold that against them, but, having skill and experience in the craft, and having worked for years to develop that skill and knoweledge, I have to agree with the main arguments presented by Steve and Andrew. I also noticed this problem earlier and tried to adress it in a particular instance myself. This forum is defined as a forum for professional bladesmiths, this does not necessarly mean that you have to make your living producing blades and that you produce award winning blades, but that you are truly devoted to the craft, you have extensive knoweledge pretaining to the craft, and have the skills required to produce blades of "professional" or at least darn good quality (or at least that was my interpretation of the guidelines for posting here).

The main frustration and ill feelings begin to arise when a beginner, having little to no knoweledge of their own starts to post and ask questions in a setting where they do not necessarily belong. This is not to say that it is a crime to be a beginner and to ask questions, afterall, everyone must start somewhere, but rather there are more appropriate settings to post these types of questions, or YOU COULD DO SOME RESEARCH OF YOUR OWN and probably find out the answers to your questions. A lot of beginners out there seem to think that it is alright to come by and ask all sorts of "dumb" questions and expect others to take time out of their day to hand them answers on a silver platter. Most smiths will go to great lengths to help others learn, but they must first show the initiative and self discipline by going out and making a legitimate effort on their own, devoting their own time, energy, and resources. There have been too many people, who, smiths (including myself), have made the effort to teach, only to have them leave, with no appreciation, and never return. This is extremly frustrating and it wastes precious time.

The most offending thing, and I think the root of this topic, is not the fact that there are beginners posting in a "professional" forum, but rather the issue of people trying to call themselves professionals when they are clearly not, and are not even close. It takes years of hard work, research, time, money, and effort to become a bladesmith, it doesnt happen overnight, and you can't just go around calling yourself one because you can take a piece of steel and grind it into some distorted blade shape. Those of us who can call ourselves bladesmiths have payed our dues, and take great pride in our work, and especially in our craft. To have someone walk in and say they are a bladesmith is demening and degrading to the art, as well as offensive to those who have proven themselves and "earned" the right to call themself a bladesmith.

I am not saying this to attack beginners, if you are a beginner and do not know anything, thats alright, you have to start somewhere, but admit that you are a beginner, admit that you don't know anything at all, and if you are serious about learning, show it. Humble yourself enough to say things how they are. Prove that you are legitimately trying on your own to learn. Try and find the answers to the questions you have on your own merit, learn as much as you possibly can before you ever come to a professional, and realize that somethings can only be learned through doing them yourself and making many mistakes, failing, suffering great dissapointment, and then picking yourself back up again and trying again and again. If you do this, and are a beginner, and may have only made a couple of starting knives, I don't see a problem with you being here and posting, and I don't think the others would mind having you around either. It is more about your attitude, sincerity, effort, self discipline, and self motiviation, not to mention respect, rather than if you are a "professional" and make "perfect" blades and "know" all there is to know.

I guess this is my stance on the situation. I have always tried to help and guide others and share what I know, and I don't have a problem doing that, unless you don't listen to the advice and recomendations that are given, try to act and pretend that you know what you are talking about when you don't, and expect everyone to give you answers with no work on your part. I am the first to admit that I do not know everything there is to know about bladesmithing, in fact I would consider that in comparison to the vast wealth and breadth of knoweledge pretaining to bladesmithing I know only a little (thats not to say I do not know anything however ). Even the best blade makers in the world do not know all there is to know, it is impossible. I am extremly self critical of my work, I make mistakes with each blade I make, and always try out new techniques. I am always trying to improve my work and constantly working towards becoming a true master of this art (which will probably take a lifetime). This is what being a bladesmith is about, its about the persuit of the craft, not just making knives and swords.

[Stephen Renico]

So, (and I'm not trying to be flippant or sarcastic) when is one qualified to post their work here?

I've been making knives for 5 years. I'm certainly no Don Fogg, and in forums like these I often describe myself as a mere high-school student in the company of PhDs.

But I have been able to crank out knives for up to $100, and have shipped them to places as far-flung as New Zealand and Latvia. I was even asked to make a kerambit by a gentleman from Malaysia, which is somewhat flattering- akin to having someone from Nepal ask you to make a kukri.

What's the litmus test for being a pro? Having blademaking as your primary source of income? I know there are starving bladesmiths, just as there are starving actors and painters. Or is it being recognized by organization X or society Y? We all know of some excellent... and I mean excellent... bladesmiths who have none of these qualifications.

Maybe we should all just "know" if we're at the pro level or not and use "discretion"? Well, that works sometimes, but as obvious as this sounds, unless there is a set standard, then there is no standard. And then people will be faulted for not adhering to what doesn't exist. So... away with me and my work, for example, and off to other boards here in SFI, or what?

Edit: It isn't that I'd really mind being told that my work isn't good enough to post here yet and to politely shove off, but I don't want to be faulted for breaking vague rules.

[Christian Borg]

[QUOTE=



Alright....let's see here. First, You should try google then the search function then the beginners forum OR the general forum, if you feel your knowledge that advanced. If you do get around to making a knife instead of a silly statement, and still have a question, try google then the search function...then the beginners forum OR the general forum. If you start making a hobby of it or a profession, and still have questions and all of the above have been exhausted, then ask here, share here, be welcomed.

Really though, the statement about knowing how to make a blade without ever even attempting it is silly and cheapens the art.

So, I'd say no.[/QUOTE]


Right, good to know. I'm exactly the same when it comes to writing actually, so... Perhaps I could've phrased the question better. The thing I was trying sort out was that if the Bladesmith Forum is the pro's forum or if it's the forum for more advanced topics. Guess I got my answer and a pretty straight one too.

[justin king]

I think the short version is that this is a forum where active members who make new threads are expected to be able to contribute their experience as well as benefit from the knowledge and experience of others. This requires that one be practicing the craft to some extent or at least have done some extensive reading and researching on the subject.
The former is preferable, the latter is acceptable as a starting point from which to learn. We don't have a pact to bash newcomers or those who are starting from zero but at the same time there are limits top how far one should bend the forum rules.