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Thread: Fiore Vids

  1. #76
    Hmm - in my posts about second master, perhaps I was making an assumption that I shouldn't have...

    Now, I am definitely in agreement that one probably shouldn't do it out of armour based on the comments in the text. That does seem pretty clear.

    But I had been assuming that one would step offline in both cases (though in armour it may not be necessary). Do folks usually interpret the 'canonical' form as not stepping off the line (or otherwise going closer to a 'zero force' position)?

    Based on the way I have been taught, without the step offline it is pretty darn clear why it is a bad idea out of armor (a rondel gets awfully near the face - likely into it). But with a step offline, things seem a bit safer - though not as much as say first or 4th master. Thus, when I train (out of harness - still getting one put together) - I always step off the line, essentially trying to void the blow and further passing it with a slight turn of the body (essentially do the same thing in 7th master as well). So has my training of a slight variant of the play made me sort of miss the point of the action as written?
    AKA: 'Sparky' (this way I won't need to explain )

    For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
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  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hayes View Post
    Chris-

    Really nice post, and I like the points about training in harness. Lacking at this moment an actual bascinet (I've got the rest of the harness), the question of the occularia often escapes me. Don't you guys use some sort of taped-off safety glasses? Are these knife training safety glasses?

    Sean
    Hi, Sean.

    Safety glasses are technically part of our full-armour equipment, though I don't think anyone actually wears them. I believe people sometimes wore racquetball goggles or similar under the visor. My bascinet is large enough that I can actually wear my eyeglasses in it, so that gives be a bit of protection. The occularia are a series of vertical slits, so that nothing large can penetrate the visor- the safety glasses are there for small pieces of meal that might come off the sword. I do know people that have been hit in the face with these little bits of metal, so it is something that can happen, but filing off burrs from the blade as they are made helps with that.
    Chris Penney

    Scholler
    Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild
    www.ottawasword.com

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by David E. Farrell View Post
    But I had been assuming that one would step offline in both cases (though in armour it may not be necessary). Do folks usually interpret the 'canonical' form as not stepping off the line (or otherwise going closer to a 'zero force' position)?

    Based on the way I have been taught, without the step offline it is pretty darn clear why it is a bad idea out of armor (a rondel gets awfully near the face - likely into it). But with a step offline, things seem a bit safer - though not as much as say first or 4th master. Thus, when I train (out of harness - still getting one put together) - I always step off the line, essentially trying to void the blow and further passing it with a slight turn of the body (essentially do the same thing in 7th master as well). So has my training of a slight variant of the play made me sort of miss the point of the action as written?

    Hi, David

    In the absence of any specific instruction on the part of Fiore, I wouldn't consider any type of footwork when covering a dagger attack "canonical". The images can illustrate where the Master wants to be when he executes his various techniques, but the specific footwork generally needs to be pieced together from this.

    I'd say that a step offline is certainly a sensible thing to do, but it might not always be possible to do in time. Another action might be to step into the attack to interrupt it. I see this as being better in terms of setting up some of the arm ties and dislocations, but it requires a more 'certain' cover.

    My feeling, in general, is to cover with the arms/hands as a first line of defence, and use the footwork to put myself in the position from where I feel best able to apply a countertechnique, but not to *rely* on it to keep me safe. This would also be situational- If I felt my opponent was a little slow, for example, or if he is telegraphing his attack I might try to step in to intercept the attack. Borrowing a comment Fiore makes in the spear section, if I found myself a little too close to my opponent for my comfort I'd definitely step backward to give myself a little more time to make a cover.
    Chris Penney

    Scholler
    Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild
    www.ottawasword.com

  4. Quote Originally Posted by C B Penney View Post
    Safety glasses are technically part of our full-armour equipment
    Hi Chris-

    I recall what I was thinking of now: it was the other Canadian group that does Fiore. David Cvet showed me some time ago a pari of safety glasses (full eye coverage, front, top, sides and bottom) that had either been taped or painted to the size of the occularia (and yes, I know what those are ).

    It strikes me as a good tool to use to explore the vidual aspect of the armoured plays, in all weapons, even when you doon't have full harness.

    Sean
    Last edited by Gregory Mele; 07-28-2008 at 09:39 PM.
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  5. #80
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    Thanks for putting the video up!

    I realise you are slowly demonstrating the technique and it doesn't show all that would be done in a real situation but I'm a little concerned with how upright your body position is. The more upright you are standing the easier it will be for your opponant to break your balance and reverse the technique- sweeping your leg as you step through with your right. Get what I mean?

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hayes View Post
    Hi Chris-

    I recall what I was thinking of now: it was the other Canadian group that does Fiore. David Cvet showed me some time ago a pari of safety glasses (full eye coverage, front, top, sides and bottom) that had either been taped or painted to the size of the occularia (and yes, I know what those are ).

    It strikes me as a good tool to use to explore the vidual aspect of the armoured plays, in all weapons, even when you doon't have full harness.

    Sean
    Hi, Sean. I have a pair of shop goggles like that. That was something that a couple of guys did here as a training tool for simulating the restricted view of a full visor. I'm not sure if Dave was referring to another group or not but full armoured fighting has always been something we've practiced.

    We (The Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild) were originally formed as a branch of AEMMA in 2000 or so (our President, Anton, is Dave's brother). We've been a separate but associated group since about 2002. Our equipment requirements for full harness and our definition of armoured fighting are essentially the same as AEMMAs.

    I mentioned the occularia because I've seen full harness for use in WMA with the single horizontal slot for the eyes. I can only assume that one wouldn't fight with a steel sword or dagger with that kind of a visor as a thrust or stab could easily kill some through the eye slot. I just wanted to state the level of protection that we use.

    cheers
    Chris Penney

    Scholler
    Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild
    www.ottawasword.com

  7. Quote Originally Posted by C B Penney View Post
    Hi, Sean. I have a pair of shop goggles like that. That was something that a couple of guys did here as a training tool for simulating the restricted view of a full visor. I'm not sure if Dave was referring to another group or not but full armoured fighting has always been something we've practiced.
    That's what I was thinking of. Dave wasn't referring to a group, just showing me the goggles. It's a cool training tool.

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  8. #83
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    Footwork in the dagger is always a conundrum. Sure it's easy to step offline in a controlled setting like the practice videos we are discussing, but when you are moving around to work measure as in a "dueling" situation or somebody just tries to do the old fashioned "prison shanking" as in a "medieval street" kind of situation, or even in earnest combat in full or partial harness it's not so easy to make canonical footwork. I suspect that this is why Fiore doesn't mention the feet at all in the Daga section; they simply aren't as much of a factor as the hands, arms, and elbows in defending against it.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Zeman View Post
    ...Fiore doesn't mention the feet at all in the Daga section; they simply aren't as much of a factor as the hands, arms, and elbows in defending against it.
    OTOH if you hammer footwork into people long enough they employ it automatically when the 'chips are down.'
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Zeman View Post
    Footwork in the dagger is always a conundrum. Sure it's easy to step offline in a controlled setting like the practice videos we are discussing, but when you are moving around to work measure as in a "dueling" situation or somebody just tries to do the old fashioned "prison shanking" as in a "medieval street" kind of situation, or even in earnest combat in full or partial harness it's not so easy to make canonical footwork. I suspect that this is why Fiore doesn't mention the feet at all in the Daga section; they simply aren't as much of a factor as the hands, arms, and elbows in defending against it.
    I mentioned something about this earlier in the thread. Another thought is this: footwork drills of various kinds can teach people to move in a specific way in a specific circumstance, but enough footwork practice done with static line drills and more fluid training drills teaches you how to move.

    So I submit that the purpose of footwork drills is to teach the student how to move under pressure, not how to execute technique X's footwork in a narrowly-defined situation.

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hayes View Post
    So I submit that the purpose of footwork drills is to teach the student how to move under pressure, not how to execute technique X's footwork in a narrowly-defined situation.
    Now I don't have the martial pedagogy experience that Sean or some of the other posters - but this makes a lot of sense to me, particularly the way Greg and the other instructors in my group teach.

    On the other hand, if you teach footwork as a technique in and of itself, well, then yeah - you may not be able to employ it (or something that will work) as easily.

    I guess the answer is clear - Fiore says nothing of the footwork in the dagger masters, so there is some leeway for interpretations there.

    With that in mind, some footwork does seem to make masters 2 and 7 a bit safer, in or out of harness (though I'll take Fiore's word for it - don't do it out of harness). I can't imagine doing the cover or a play from any other master without moving into the attack or away from it (i.e. footwork), so I don't really see a reason why 2 or 7 should be any different.
    AKA: 'Sparky' (this way I won't need to explain )

    For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
    -- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

  12. #87
    Hi all,

    I have found that working with Sean Hayes drills that he showed at the last WMAW in the dagger setting has been beneficial to translating dagger from individual technique through to drill. Sean we have combined this with a variety of flow drills, when we meet next remind me to show you, you are probably working with this sort of stuff anyway....

    As far as footwork is concerned in terms of mentions in the dagger section, footwork does seem to have less emphasis in the Daga section, after all by nature of the weapon we are in giocco stretto......... on the other hand let's not forget the first master of battle as mentioned in the introduction, who informs us how to launch basic attacks and utilise defense from the posta etc etc..... it is here that our footwork becomes paramount and this is instructed elsewhere in the manual and being as that the system is holoistic then we must remember and employ those lessons everywhere within the system.... obviously not ignoring how certain weapons can slightly mutate things.....

    take care,

    Rob
    You kill 'em, we'll save 'em
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lovett View Post
    I have found that working with Sean Hayes drills that he showed at the last WMAW in the dagger setting has been beneficial to translating dagger from individual technique through to drill. Sean we have combined this with a variety of flow drills, when we meet next remind me to show you, you are probably working with this sort of stuff anyway....
    I can't wait to see them! Off to ISMAC - won't be connected much for a few days.

    Cheers-

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  14. #89
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    Leaning ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Boyd View Post
    Thanks for putting the video up!

    I realise you are slowly demonstrating the technique and it doesn't show all that would be done in a real situation but I'm a little concerned with how upright your body position is. The more upright you are standing the easier it will be for your opponant to break your balance and reverse the technique- sweeping your leg as you step through with your right. Get what I mean?
    Matt, never had a problem. In fact Master Fiore stresses on his segno to not lose your balance. (Forteza) Leaning in any direction substantially decreases the power of your hip movements from which the great majority of one's power should flow. It also takes longer time to recover from to move into a different position. None of Fiore's guards, be they abrazare, dagger, or sword are out of balance. Not even longa in abrazare as the back hand's position offsets the forward reach to keep balance.

    My to florins,

    Brian
    Dojocho
    Suio Ryu of Iai Kenpo(tm).
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  15. #90
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    Abrazare and Largo

    For your viewing pleasure you will find videos of our views of the Abrazare starting to appear. I have also put up the first video of the long sword section which basically explains why we believe the First Master is executing a true edge block and the Second Master a false edge.

    Cordiali Saluti,

    Brian
    Dojocho
    Suio Ryu of Iai Kenpo(tm).
    www.suioryusandiego.org

    Schola San Marco(tm)
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    www.scholasanmarco.com

    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stokes View Post
    Matt, never had a problem. In fact Master Fiore stresses on his segno to not lose your balance. (Forteza) Leaning in any direction substantially decreases the power of your hip movements from which the great majority of one's power should flow. It also takes longer time to recover from to move into a different position. None of Fiore's guards, be they abrazare, dagger, or sword are out of balance. Not even longa in abrazare as the back hand's position offsets the forward reach to keep balance.

    My to florins,

    Brian
    Brian,
    I wasn't meaning leaning or doing a technique out of balance. I agree, any technique should be done in balance but I was meaning dynamic balance vs. static balance.

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Easton View Post
    We had a pure Fiore dagger session in training this week, finishing with some pretty rough freeplay, unarmed against dagger. There were plenty of bruises, scrapes and some wobbly limbs by the end of it, but it really is one of the best reality checks in HEMA I think.

    While it is desirable to move your distance and angle when attacked with a dagger, in any reality, be it in freeplay or on the street (modern or 14thC), you often just don't have time. For this reason we train all defences at all distances and all angles, as best we can. I think the more detailed and fussy you make a defence, the less likely it is that it will be useful to you when the poo poo hits the fan.

    Matt

    Yes, Matt. This has been my experience after playing really hard with the material, so we too train as you suggest.

    Also, you can see that in real knife attacks vids available on Youtube, for instance, that is is often impossible to move out of the way because of the speed with which the attack unfolds. While it sometimes is possible to move laterally (I know someone who managed it in a real knifing), you can't always count on it, so you should train without a lateral movement.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Zeman View Post
    Footwork in the dagger is always a conundrum. Sure it's easy to step offline in a controlled setting like the practice videos we are discussing, but when you are moving around to work measure as in a "dueling" situation or somebody just tries to do the old fashioned "prison shanking" as in a "medieval street" kind of situation, or even in earnest combat in full or partial harness it's not so easy to make canonical footwork. I suspect that this is why Fiore doesn't mention the feet at all in the Daga section; they simply aren't as much of a factor as the hands, arms, and elbows in defending against it.

    Yes. I think that's really true.

    FYI, here's an account of a real knife fight from 1325:

    London coroner’s rolls, 23 April 1325
    "on the preceding Sunday, at the hour of Vespers, the said Thomas of Kirkeby and a certain Joyce de Spaldinge were quarreling in the aforesaid church, when the said Thomas drove the said Joyce therefrom up to the stone wall of Ydonia de Leyre, striking him with his fist on the face and drawing his knife; that thereupon the said Joyce drew his knife called an “anlaz” and fatally struck the said Thomas therewith on the left side of the breast, inflicting a mortal wound an inch long and eight inches deep; that the said Thomas with drawn knife pursued the said Joyce to kill him as far as the street of “la Roperie,” and was thence carried by his friends to the place where he was found dead . . ."

    I doubt there was much lateral movement here (but of course we'll never know), unless rapid retreat counts as lateral movement.

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Vail View Post
    Yes. I think that's really true.

    FYI, here's an account of a real knife fight from 1325:

    London coroner’s rolls, 23 April 1325
    "on the preceding Sunday, at the hour of Vespers, the said Thomas of Kirkeby and a certain Joyce de Spaldinge were quarreling in the aforesaid church, when the said Thomas drove the said Joyce therefrom up to the stone wall of Ydonia de Leyre, striking him with his fist on the face and drawing his knife; that thereupon the said Joyce drew his knife called an “anlaz” and fatally struck the said Thomas therewith on the left side of the breast, inflicting a mortal wound an inch long and eight inches deep; that the said Thomas with drawn knife pursued the said Joyce to kill him as far as the street of “la Roperie,” and was thence carried by his friends to the place where he was found dead . . ."

    I doubt there was much lateral movement here (but of course we'll never know), unless rapid retreat counts as lateral movement.
    I don't think there is any doubt that folks don't step offline in fights (be they modern or otherwise)... I think the question is more of what one *should* do. I see no reason to have expected either of those mentioned to use technique (including movement) that would be used by trained combatants (just 'cuz everyone had a knife didn't mean that they were knife-fighters)... therefore I see no reason that one shouldn't train to use footwork. Rather, I see it as a good reason to learn to move properly.

    But perhaps I misunderstand the context in which you are posting?
    AKA: 'Sparky' (this way I won't need to explain )

    For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
    -- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

  20. #95
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    Postings

    For those interested, three more videos have been posted.

    Brian
    Dojocho
    Suio Ryu of Iai Kenpo(tm).
    www.suioryusandiego.org

    Schola San Marco(tm)
    Italian Sword in the Fiore Tradition
    www.scholasanmarco.com

    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
    Swinging swords since 1972

  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Zeman View Post
    Footwork in the dagger is always a conundrum. Sure it's easy to step offline in a controlled setting like the practice videos we are discussing, but when you are moving around to work measure as in a "dueling" situation or somebody just tries to do the old fashioned "prison shanking" as in a "medieval street" kind of situation, or even in earnest combat in full or partial harness it's not so easy to make canonical footwork. I suspect that this is why Fiore doesn't mention the feet at all in the Daga section; they simply aren't as much of a factor as the hands, arms, and elbows in defending against it.
    Odd, as Silver stressed continual motion above all else for the dagger fight. I guess they are two completely different systems. From my limited experience, sniping as Silver suggests does work best against a moderately cautious opponent.

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