Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Sam Brown's Belt in the US Army

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274

    Sam Brown's Belt in the US Army

    Hello.
    Created this topic in order to understand the use of Sam Brown's belt in the US Army during the period from World War I to World War II inclusive.
    The fact is that for the demonstration of the American saber of the 1902 model in my collection, released in the period before the Second World War, I want to equip the dummy with the uniform of an officer of the 1943 model with a belt designed by Sam Brown and put a saber on it with a chain belt.
    Perhaps, for some, this topic is not at all interesting, but for me, obtaining information is important so that the mannequin I have collected corresponds to the historical accuracy.
    From the information I have (possibly erroneous), I know that Sam Brown's belt was not officially introduced to be worn by US Army officers in the first half of the 20th century in the United States, however, in expeditionary forces stationed in other countries, this belt was used by officers to be worn with a uniform. I do not know how correct this information is.
    Here, for example, is a photo of an American general (I don't know his name) who has a Sam Brown belt on his uniform and a chain on his belt for hanging a saber.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    I have such a uniform as in the photo - a green tunic and pink trousers.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    I have assembled such a kit - there is no dummy yet, here is such a demonstration of the uniform in order to understand how it will look on the dummy.
    Sam Brown's belt is not American, but British, but since they are identical, I think this one will fit.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Also please explain to me if the medal Ribbon bar is in the correct order on the uniform.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    I also have the original American flag of 48 stars, made of cotton, with sewn stars, which, according to my idea, will serve as a background for a mannequin.
    Maybe someone can tell me from the manufacturer's label at what time this flag was issued - during the Second World War or later.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Thanks in advance to everyone who answered my questions.
    With best regards, Vladimir.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,649

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas City Metro (USA)
    Posts
    1,733
    Vladimir,

    Your sword hanger and belt question is an interesting subject that I have spent some time on myself. Here are some basics: The Sam Browne belt was not worn by US Army Officers until it was allowed for wear during WWI in the European Theater. By regulation the earlier US sword belts, without a cross strap, were worn in the US and elsewhere, i.e. in The Philippines or other US possessions. When the US Army Officers returned to the US, they should have put their Sam Browne belts away and gone back to the US regulation belts without a cross strap. Also, leather, bullion, or cloth double strap hangers were in wear until they were largely superseded by the chain hanger. The Sam Brown belt was adopted by the US Army between the wars, which brings us up to your timeline.

    The rig that the General Officer is wearing is the one you want for your circa 1943 impression. Bear in mind, that the wear of the US Model 1902 Army Officer Saber was suspended for the duration of the war by orders around 1942. There were some exceptions for Military Schools, ROTC, Honor Guards, etc. so it was still possible to wear the saber as late as 1943 so you are good to go.

    Here are some examples along with the proper russet color sword knot for service wear.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Black Hills of SD
    Posts
    1,924
    Vladimir, the incomplete ribbon row (2 vs 3) would be on the top. Not necessarily those two particular ribbons, but whichever two have the highest status. The 48 star flag would have been in use during your time period. It was supplanted with the 50 star flag in 1959 when Alaska and Hawaii became states.
    Last edited by Brock H; 02-02-2021 at 07:59 AM.
    "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer."--Gen. George S. Patton

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas City Metro (USA)
    Posts
    1,733
    Here are some American made belts, including the WWI regulation without a cross strap, as well.

    I hope this is helpful.

    George
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Annandale, VA
    Posts
    922
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    Also please explain to me if the medal Ribbon bar is in the correct order on the uniform.
    Your ribbon bar is up-side-down. The top ribbon is for the Silver Star and the Soldiers Medal; the second row is the Army Commendation Medal, American Campaign Metal, Asian-Pacific Campaign Medal with one campaign star; the third row is European Campaign Medal with two campaign stars, WWII Victory Medal. and Occupation Medal.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Friends, thank you all very much for the answers, you helped me a lot.
    With best regards, Vladimir.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    I changed the ribbons of the medals and I think I have now placed them in the correct order.
    Another question - could an officer with the rank of major of artillery (which corresponds to the insignia on his jacket) and having six patches on his sleeve for being outside the United States, receive all these awards? At the same time, visit both the Pacific theater of operations and the European one?
    I bought this jacket for ebay already with such insignia and medal ribbons. The tunic is old, in places with sewn holes. The medal ribbons and insignia may have already been attached by the seller.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Annandale, VA
    Posts
    922
    The ribbon bar is still up-side-down. The American military wear the shorter row on the top, i.e. the Silver Star and Soldier Medal ribbons would be in the top row.

    Although unusual, individuals were sometimes transferred between Theaters. A major could have such a mix of ribbons. The Silver Star is quite high and is only awarded for conspicuous bravery in combat. The Soldiers Medal is uncommon - it us only awarded for bravely in noncombatant situations.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Richard, thanks for the answer.
    With best regards, Vladimir.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Birmingham Alabama
    Posts
    1,654
    Vladimir: The ribbons are not correct. the rows are in reverse order, put the bottom row on top, the middle on the bottom, and the top row as shown, goes in the middle.


    Dale

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Dale, thanks, I already understood and remade
    With best regards, Vladimir.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    864
    Also that's Douglas MacArthur in the old photo.
    hc3

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Thanks for the info.
    In the photo, he looks younger than his usual picture with a pipe in the style of the sailor Popeye.
    Therefore, I did not recognize him, since this is not a commander of my country.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Hello everybody.
    Since in this thread I asked questions about ribbons of medals, here I want to ask this about:
    In what cases was the owner's name engraved on the back of US military medals?
    Sincerely, Vladimir.

    For some reason, the photo was loaded sideways ...
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Vladimir Sukhomlinov; 04-20-2021 at 02:28 AM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    Hello everybody.
    In what cases was the owner's name engraved on the back of US military medals?
    My experience comes from the period 1986-2013; medals I was awarded did not have my name engraved on the back. After I retired, I requested a full set of medals be issued to me, and they all came with my name engraved on the back.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vladivostok, Russia
    Posts
    274
    Sean, thanks for the answer.
    It turns out that the absence of a name on the medal does not mean that it was not given to anyone?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Sukhomlinov View Post
    Sean, thanks for the answer.
    It turns out that the absence of a name on the medal does not mean that it was not given to anyone?
    I never saw a medal awarded during my period of service that had the awardee's name engraved on it. I have a friend with a Distinguished Flying Cross and a Silver Star, and neither medal has his name on it.

    After leaving service, you can request to have a complete new set of your medals mailed to you, and these will have your name engraved.

    But the practice during your period of interest may have been different. Fewer medals were awarded back then, I imagine.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Annandale, VA
    Posts
    922
    Ref Sean's comment on names being engraved on medals - same applies to my period of service, 1962-1984. My father served in WWII and Korea - none of his medals were personalized either. I'm not sure if it ever was routine to personalize normally awarded medals.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •