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Thread: Help with rapier blade description

  1. #1

    Help with rapier blade description

    Hi all
    Please help with description on rapier blade. This blade old? 17th -18th century?
    Thanks!
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    Last edited by edwardauskis; 04-13-2021 at 08:09 PM.

  2. #2
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    IVAN MARTINEZ (e)N TOLEDO

  3. #3
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    Looks like it was made for Portuguese market.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  4. #4
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    I was surprised that Max and Jörgen can not read this inscription.

    Regarding the age... More likely 17th century, less likely 18th century imitation of 17th century blade. But nobody can tell with 100% certainty.
    Last edited by Ivan B.; 04-13-2021 at 11:52 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Fairbanks View Post
    Looks like it was made for Portuguese market.
    Definitely Portuguese.

  6. #6
    Ivan Martinez was Espadero del Rey in Toledo, Spain, 16th-17th centuries. So why is this rapier any different than others if it was made for the Portuguese market?

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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Braden View Post
    Ivan Martinez was Espadero del Rey in Toledo, Spain, 16th-17th centuries. So why is this rapier any different than others if it was made for the Portuguese market?
    The blade might not have been but hilt is Portuguese.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  8. #8
    Are we sure that this isn't Juan Martinez??

  9. #9
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    Mexicans loved that sort of hilt. Older cut down rapier blade, end of XVIIth, on 1850s hilt, I would say.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Ramos View Post
    Mexicans loved that sort of hilt. Older cut down rapier blade, end of XVIIth, on 1850s hilt, I would say.
    I must confess I was completely thrown off by the hilt, but Javier’s explanation makes sense. As for the blade it looks similar to my cuphilt rapier and may in fact be Solingen made.

    See: http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showth...ighlight=ayala towards the end... Interesting thing about my rapier is the blade is very stiff and it’s sharpened quite far up the blade. You would imagine it to be a piercing weapon, but it’s also capable of giving a nasty cut from the edges of the blade, perhaps to prevent an opponent from gripping it.
    Last edited by Magnus K; 04-15-2021 at 09:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Ivan is a Latinization of Juan.
    In "The Armoury of Windsor Castle" (1904) there is a listing of a Martinez rapier with a (presumably) 17th-century Flemish hilt that was attached in 1815 to an original Spanish blade with the inscription IVAN MARTINEZ EN TOLEDO.

  12. #12
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    For what it's worth, the hilt doesn't look terribly old to me.

  13. #13
    I think it's a fabulous sword.
    I think the main hilt (sans the forward leaning quillions) is 19th century and belongs so some heavy sabre/cavalry sword. The hump back on the pommel and the general angles of the hilt parts don't look aesthetically correct.
    I would say that the hilt parts have been carefully adjusted to make them 'straighter'. The pommel to grip most noticably.
    The angle of the blade to the hilt is also 'off' to my eye.
    The added forward leaning quillions are a mystery to me. Especially the convex central plate which would surely make a good join to the scabbard more difficult.
    As to where this beautiful 'monster' was created? I would also guess at somewhere with a strong colonial Spanish/Portugese flavour.
    All just my thoughts of course and I could be totally wrong.

    I think it's great! Can you show a picture of the whole sword Edward?
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 04-16-2021 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Posting after a bourbon, meant to say Spanish/Portugese!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Wilkinson View Post

    Can you show a picture of the whole sword Edward?
    This photos from auction, I ask forum members info before bid on it. Lenght 99 cm, blade 86,5 cm
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    Last edited by edwardauskis; 04-15-2021 at 09:02 PM.

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    While a similar style hilt with minor differences was somewhat popular in Mexico mid to late 19th century especially during Second Mexican Empire this piece to my eye is Brazilian late18th to mid 19th century possibly earlier.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  16. #16
    Martinez was in partnership with Israel Schuech (or Schvech), German goldsmith, swordsmith, and hiltmaker at the Court of Saxony (ca. 1590-1610), and the highest price recorded for a European sword as of 1970 was $50,400 paid at Sotheby, London, on March 23, 1970, for a swept-hilt rapier, 48 1/2 inches long, made in 1606 for the Duke of Saxony, with blade by Martinez and gilt-bronze, jeweled, and pearled hilt by Schuech, now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus K View Post
    I must confess I was completely thrown off by the hilt, but Javier’s explanation makes sense. As for the blade it looks similar to my cuphilt rapier and may in fact be Solingen made.

    See: http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showth...ighlight=ayala towards the end... Interesting thing about my rapier is the blade is very stiff and it’s sharpened quite far up the blade. You would imagine it to be a piercing weapon, but it’s also capable of giving a nasty cut from the edges of the blade, perhaps to prevent an opponent from gripping it.
    XVIIth century Spanish fencing (destreza) books describe how to do small cuts from the wrist with the sharp end of the blade. A cut on the forehead (where blood will fall on the eyes) or the wrists back can be very incapacitating, not needing to be deep. Of course you do not have the time to be playing like that in the middle of a battle, where you need to severe tendons and muscles, but this is a civilian weapon.
    Last edited by Javier Ramos; 04-19-2021 at 06:47 AM.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

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