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Thread: Questions, opinions that need adressing, please. Romanian-Dacian Falx, and armour.

  1. #1

    Post Questions, opinions that need adressing, please. Romanian-Dacian Falx, and armour.

    Greetings,

    This post is a breather folks, so pull out your coffee, or whatever you drink, and don't get too dizzy! My apologies for offending anyone, and please discussion is ask politely for. I have been on these forums and decided to accumulate my thoughts and post something of substantial size and discussion capability.

    First off, I have been most impressed with the caliber of the discussions, advice, and criticism given on SFI. I do hope, and fully expect that it will continue to be a deciding factor in this thread and many threads to come; and thankyou for the moderators, and the people behind the scenes (God bless, heal, and help Genise Graham)!

    Well, on to the business at hand. I hope to not bore anyone, but I must re-collect of the history of myself, not for the sake of others, but for the sake of all who participate in this thread.

    I was born in Bucharest, Romania on October 09, 1989. The story retold by my adoptive parents was that I was sent to an orphanage due to my biological parents not being able to feed, and take care of me. I do not know the authenticity of this statement by my present parents; but it could well be very true, since it was the time of the Romanian Revolution of 1989. I do not wish to go into further details though I am quite knowledgeable of it by studying my country's history. Due to the ever-persistent allocation of children to orphanages; I was luckily able to be taken into and was adopted by my loving famliy. Even though I was only adopted at 6 months old, well after the revolution, and I have always had a hungering passion to learn about my countries history; most presumably the Ancient Civilizations such as the Dacians and their use of the sica, falx, and such armour, and customs, culture. Though any other information of these, and other times would be greatly appreciated. I have gone to wikipedia extenstively to get information; though I know it is not without risk for it is information adressed and defined by the common people. I have visited greatly the external links of any cue word such as Dacia, Romania, Falx, and Getae. Also, any weapon that would be considered a very prestigious weapon of the Romanian people "geographically" would be also graciously accepted, but still just from my common knowledge, my favourite weapon is still the falx.

    Coming to think about it, my reason for my sword, and armour interest began being purely fantacised at first; reading (in my personal opinoin the excellent high-fantasy) Lord of the Ring Series, and all other associating books (The Silmarillion, which I am reading now for the second time, and all other books subscribing to J.R.R Tolkiens by his son, Christopher Tolkien.) My interest began to truely take an exciting turn, when last summer, working at the same Christian Camp in B.C of where I'm working at now; I met a very good friend, who I have not heard of over in a year. His name was Mike Timothy and he was in the re-enactment studies and arts of the SCA. After meeting with him; I told my father, and was really eager to join the SCA. My father was not so eager; and did not allow me to join for many other reasons. His main reason was that he would help me find a dojo in Edmonton, in which I could recieve very practical, and rooted tradional training in classical japanese swordsmanship as it has always been a dream of mine to actually learn real swordsmanship. One persuading reason of which I was unable to join the SCA; was no matter how fun, or truely exciting the SCA was; it was not rooted in tradition and was not made for the practicality of incapacitating, killing an opponent in a real swordfight, and that the techniques, stances, kata, discipline. Everything about the only school that I could join was that the skills were all transible to other aspects of life. I am a faithful believer in God, but Musashi Miyamoto by Eiji Yoshikawa has been one of the most inciteful, and most pleasureable reads of my lifetime so far; even more so that Lord of the Rings in some cases, for its down to human nature approach, and reasoning.
    I take Shinkage Ryu kenjustu style, (my dojo, for anyone who's interested: ) and the thought of strengthening the mind and body to a point of almost complete control, was beyond my grasp, but even to this day, it is what I secretly strive for.

    In Yoshikawa's book, Musashi before the battle at the Pine Crag Tree, came so close to asking the Gods for help in the upcoming battle; he wished to remain dependent on his abilities alone. He wished to master himself. I find that all humans, even I (to not say this would be a mockery to human nature) are stubborn, selfish, and say courteous words with our mouths, but sinful thoughts with our hearts. Musashi Miyamoto was seeming to always have his mental doubts, about Otsu, love, and life in general, but due to the nature of humans, (This is my own personal opinion, and I do not wish to rise a debate about it, only the opinion which should be debated) wished to rely on himself and only himself. I find this impossible and find that I must rely on God; for this has been too many times in life in which it sucked, that in my heart I could not take it, though by the forgiveness of God, that we may accept his forgiveness, for we are incapable of doing such things alone. My statement too me is just proved by the fallen world we live in. I do not wish to come across as religious bigotry; for my decision is inescapably rooted in my belief of swordtraining, and life in general; as was Musashi's for he referred himself as a "strategist", not "swordmanship". I for one can re-collect in the historical book of Eiji's book Miyamoto Musashi, that Takezo, (as he was named), acted like an animal and was full of a fierce fire inside of him. This can be desribed as fury, anger, temper, etc, etc. I for one have an abounding temper, and am very competitive, hating to lose, and letting my team mates down (whoever they are), being very insecure inside of myself. We humans are unable to grasp the greater scope of life and we are unable to deal with all of the problems that go wrong in this world, and that relying on yourself to become a swordsman is not possible. It should and most definately be of a teacher, who is taught a practical form and style, and then up to you, and God, or whatever you believe in. I am trying to relate this back into context with the Musashi Miyamoto praying to the Shinto god's. Thought the monk (who I've forgotten his name) did bring in a religious aspect into the latter life of Miyamoto Musashi.

    I once heard my Grade 11 Social teacher say in class, that you will most probably understand and come to the same thinkings as your parents, as they are the "basis" of your education due to your upbringing for me. (maybe for others though I can't say) I believe this true, for I have often had many a fruitful conversation with my father, and he has given me many things inciteful to think about. On a happier note, I let him borrow my "Musashi Miyamoto" by Eiji Yoshikawa and hope that he reads it over this summer. He is a very down-to-earth father. He is a stockbroker and has done very well for himself. He is conscious of my feelings, and lends incitelful advice to everything that I do. I am only 16 years old by the way, and not wise in the ways of the world yet. I don't think their is anyone other than my mother and family who are more precious to me; other than God. Know this, again my opinion's are based on my upbringings and of my own experiences in life (as our everyones) but I will not subject myself to having a biased attitude, and hearing out anyone's opinion's regarding my writings.

    I am staying the summer at a Christian Camp, and the experiences (even though not getting payed) are virtually worth a lifetime of pay, for it is not an easy life I live, trying to act just, and right, and following God's word. Personally, it has been even harder, taking a servant's position and humbling myself to others.

    I must thank everyone for reading, and hope again that I have not offended anyone. I do not consider myself a religious christian bigotry and hope no one else does. I find that one must be content with one's own spirit to truely accel, in anything in life.

    I apologize again for the long read. I would be enamored if there was potent discussion and most importantly of the Dacian falx. I apologize for being so self-centered, and mean no disrespect.

    I also would like to say that really trying to control my anger, and vent it in godly or postive ways, have really been a challenge, because due to my personality and nature; I get angry about losing my temper and not counseling myself before hand, and let me tell you. My name is Barrett, and I am commonly called Bear. Well that is what I sometimes act as, and it is frustrating to say in the least. Discussion must be held of such things, for it to be remedied in such a way as for a person to learn the error of their ways, be forgiven and learn from them.

    I probably have missed or forgotten something, but I have a curfew of 11:00 pm which I must keep. Thanks one and all again, and good night.

    Barrett Michael Hiebert


    http://www.noblehousekenjutsu.com// Noble House Kenjustu Shinkage Ryu Style Dacian Falx

  2. #2
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    Hi Barrett, welcome to SFI. I had trouble discerning a question amongst your post but I think you are asking how effective a falx was against Roman armour?

    There is evidence that the Romans added additional pieces of armour and reinforced their helmets after learning how effective the falx was in combat. This suggests to me that the falx was effective at penetrating Roman defenses to injure unarmoured locations (especially the arms). It also suggests that the pre-modified helmets were suceptible to a heavy downward chop from the falx. However, it is likely that areas covered by Roman armour were largely protected against this weapon. Against the Roman shield, experiments with modern reconstructions suggest that a heavy downward chop is capable of penetrating a fair way through it. But, under battle conditions, its effectiveness would be less dramatic since the shield would not be rigidly braced on the ground.

    If you are asking what sort of armour was worn in Dacia/Romania then you will need to narrow down a time period.

    Edit: I am moving this to the Armour forum since it covers similar ground to some other threads here.

  3. #3

    Post

    Greetings,

    Dan Howard:

    I apologize if I rambled on in my post; and yes, I do know of the falx's effectiveness and the modifications that the Romei legionares used, concerning the metallic straps that were modified on their helmet, and using lorica manica and greaves.

    Yes, I would like to know of the armour worn during the specific time, per say from when the falx was invented and used to its diminish among the populace as a weapon. But most importantly from the time of 85-89 AD in which the Dacians were engaged with the Romans, under Decebalus, in which their state (country) was at its most flourishing state.

    I also really want to focus on the use of the falx, and maybe the type of shield they used, but I suppose that runs with armour.

    Concerning the other information I wrote down:

    The lengthy many last paragraph's was more to bring up the discussion of Musashi Miyamoto's ordeal (even if created from a historical viewpoint into a novel) of relying on oneself, and that from my personal experience in general (not only swordmanship) but of life of general. To understand that their are so many outcomes which are possibly not under our control. And of controlling spirit or to being content with who you are.

    To reiterate an example: I was at my camp the other day, and it was my job to scare the geese off of the lawn's, since they poop, and it is quite an exilirating job. I took my bokken and ambushed them, but not being able to run fast enough to catch them, I waited for the flanking maneuver of my friend John Dick to come running in and let them into my line of sight With a mighty swing, my bokken flew over the air, (spinning horizontally on an upward diagonal plane) and hitting one of the goose' in the neck, breaking it. It flopped irrevocably to the ground, in which I was at first scared of what I had done, not being able to deal the final blow. In the end, I drowned the bird in the water, instead of making a mess, for it had flopped quite a bit. It in truth was one of the most sorrowful times in my life. After the morning devotional, the LIT (Leadership-In-Training) were going down their to have a meeting, which they would surely see the dead goose lying on the log, (of which the thought I abhorred, for I wished no one to find out my action). In the end, I buried it out in the back 40, asked for its forgiveness and gave it a prayer, but not before a heated discussion with the leader of the LIT's who was my friend, and having to apologize to her after.

    I apologize if this went hilter-skelter, but it is sword-related (bokken) and was my second kill, disconcerning the one that I killed last summer with a rock. As alsways, my goal was to scare and hurt, not kill. Truely taking life, even not human life, is harder than it's cut out to be.

    If no one chooses to bring up their own opinions or debate mine, that is fine, but please still pump out the falx, and the type of armour, shields they used, please. Thankyou very much and have a excellent day.

    Barrett Hiebert
    Last edited by Barrett Hiebert; 08-06-2006 at 08:06 AM.

  4. #4
    Well, from the information on Dacian gear seen on Roman monuments, most Dacian warriors would have been unarmored, like most any other tribal people at that time. The upper classes, perhaps 10 percent of the troops in any army, would have had body armor of mail or scale. Helmets would have been a little more common than that, but hardly universal. Dacian shields appear to have been flat ovals made of planks, probably faced with leather or rawhide.

    It is interesting to note that while the Romans appear to have responded to the falx by adding limb armor (and in some cases switching to mail or scale shirts that extend lower than the popular lorica segmentata), the Dacians do NOT seem to have had any special defenses against their own weapon. Remember that before the Romans invade, most Dacian warfare would have been against other Dacians. To them, it was just part of the arsenal, another hazard of battle like a spear or sword. If any Dacian didn't have enough wealth to afford body armor, he wasn't likely to worry about special defenses for protection from the falx. The shield was always the primary protection, followed by the helmet and next by body armor. Limbs are only considered after that, usually. Since the Romans were already wearing helmets and body armor, arm and leg defences were an easy logical step.

    Have you seen the photos of Steve Peffley's falx in action?

    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut1.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut2.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut3.jpg

    There are a couple others on the Legio XX Roman Days page,

    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html

    We tried to design a rig which would hold the shield with the same sort of strength and "give" as one held by a man. We all agreed that the falx is a darn scary weapon!

    Vale,

    Matthew

  5. #5
    Greetings,

    Matthew Amt:

    Well, from the information on Dacian gear seen on Roman monuments, most Dacian warriors would have been unarmored, like most any other tribal people at that time. The upper classes, perhaps 10 percent of the troops in any army, would have had body armor of mail or scale. Helmets would have been a little more common than that, but hardly universal.
    I do believe this also to be true based on common information due to the monument Trajan's column. But I graciously ask the specific type of armour they wore, and other such things, if it could be narrowed down.

    Dacian shields appear to have been flat ovals made of planks, probably faced with leather or rawhide.
    I do remember from past studies that it was a theuros, with a butterfly boss guard, made of planks of wood, and being probably faced with leather and rawhide as you suggested. Also that the Dacians were the originator of the peltast tactic, and equipment, known as the pelte, a crescent shaped wicker shield.

    It is interesting to note that while the Romans appear to have responded to the falx by adding limb armor (and in some cases switching to mail or scale shirts that extend lower than the popular lorica segmentata), the Dacians do NOT seem to have had any special defenses against their own weapon. Remember that before the Romans invade, most Dacian warfare would have been against other Dacians. To them, it was just part of the arsenal, another hazard of battle like a spear or sword. If any Dacian didn't have enough wealth to afford body armor, he wasn't likely to worry about special defenses for protection from the falx. The shield was always the primary protection, followed by the helmet and next by body armor. Limbs are only considered after that, usually. Since the Romans were already wearing helmets and body armor, arm and leg defences were an easy logical step.
    I also agree with your logic; considering that I was a dacian fighting against other tribes, I would use my shield as a primary defence and then such other armour. Personally, I would want the lightest, but most protective armour at the time to offer myself maximum mobility, speed and agility. I would also want to use my falx personally one-handedly and two, being able to switch between shield, and falx, or vice-versa, or together necesitating as the situation dictated.

    Have you seen the photos of Steve Peffley's falx in action?
    Yes, I have, and printed them out for my leisure to remember and honour the destructive power of the falx.

    We tried to design a rig which would hold the shield with the same sort of strength and "give" as one held by a man. We all agreed that the falx is a darn scary weapon!
    Yes, I was most impressed with your improvised "man", most interesting indeed. Were you their in that picture, maybe in the background as the Roman legionare, or the centurion?

    Well, thankyou for the information, and the more you could help me out, the better it would be. Thankyou and have a good day.

    Barrett Michael Hiebert

  6. #6

    Dacian armour, and falx.

    Greetings,

    To all who are interested:

    As I have a predilection for Dacian arms and armour, I wish to learn all about the falx, and its one-handed counterpart, the sica. Also, I would learn about the armour that was Dacian designed, (mostly worn by the upper class) as they were able to afford it. I do understand that most armour was either captured as war-booty or given, and traden; but still I would like to know. Pictures of antique armour would be lovely. As referring to the shield, I once read in a post that the butterfly shield (theuros) was a Gallic invention; does anybody know the truth of this statement? Also was chain mail, and scale armour devised and designed by the Celts, and what period of time was that?

    Thanks for reading and hopefully you , whoever you are will be able to help me. Thankyou again, and good night!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert
    Last edited by Barrett Hiebert; 08-06-2006 at 09:16 PM.

  7. #7
    There is nothing wrong in exploring the Society for Creative Anachronism as well. The organization is world wide with many historical periods as "Living History" and represent as well as various weapons style of fighting. There are quite afew Living History reenactors who are involved with Western and Japanese Martial weapons arts within the SCA.

    Although not Live Steel, the tournament "swordplay" is based on Medieval tournament fighting with Baton/club fighting. In the past 40 years, it has evolved into a Western Martial Art of it's own.
    One persuading reason of which I was unable to join the SCA; was no matter how fun, or truely exciting the SCA was; it was not rooted in tradition and was not made for the practicality of incapacitating, killing an opponent in a real swordfight, and that the techniques, stances, kata, disciplineand that the techniques, stances, kata, discipline
    I would beg to differ with you on this. As mentioned, t's basic Tournament fighting is rooted in Western Sword traditions. It is not just swing at your opponent and bash away. There ARE Techniques, Stances, forms of "Kata" and Discipline in it's forms of fighting. Any serious Martial Art has their own versions of these. In the SCA, these are taught to the new fighter by more experienced ones. By the Knights to their squires and so on. You will find many adherents of the very arts your father and teacher want you to learn. Do not dismiss what is not known to you right now.

    As for actual sword use, the SCA is replete with tales where, in defense of themselves or others, their weapons skills and discipline have been used. These are not just anecodotal either.

    The organization does promote the Ideal of Chivalry as it should have been. It does promote "The Way of the Warrior" very much like the Code you speak of. Of "strengthening the mind and body....." Of how the code does translate into real life. The SCA is old enough that several generations have grown up within it. There are grandchildren now who are growing up with the firm ideals of "right and proper living".

    The SCA is not just roleplaying. It is not Fantasy/ LARP. Nor is it a "cult". It is one style of Living History Reenacting. With an end point of the beginning of the 17th Century, you can take it as far back you wish. Taking and developing a personna based on one's heritage, or historical interest has been one of it's entry/ appeals for many. With others, it is just a way of "play acting" until they finally decide to do more. There are those who strive for authencity to a fault. Others who just try to learn as much as they can and do what they can. Art, Music, Sciences, age old skills revived. Vast amount of research goes on and historical that rivals anything you would find in museums or university classes. You want to know more about Romano Dacian weaponry and armour? You will find others who have similar interests and can help you look further. In fact, this site is one start: The Armour Archive I am sure you will find some help there with your questions.

    However, not all SCA groups are alike. In some you will find definate time periods represented while in others a mixture. Some might be put off by seeing so many periods/cultures in one spot. Samurai, Vikings, High Middle Ages. Spartans in Hoplite armour fighting against warriors in 14th Century Bascinet Armour on the Tourny field.

    Can 16th Century Samurai weapon techniques be used against 16th Century English/Spanish? Just how would their armour stand up against each other? I have seen this in masse at the Estrella War last year where just such a Japanese Household fielded a group of Samurai using the rattan "swords" and polearms against armoured Elizabethan foot soldiers and theirs.

    The point is you are not limited in your horizons. I do not know what the Edmonton Barony's makeup is like or it's smaller shires/households. But I do know, you never judge a book by it's cover.

    In closing, I have been a member of the SCA since 1971 and my husband, Kirby Wise-Fraser, since 1968. We both hold honors within it for what we do and how we have helped others. Have seen it from nearly the very beginning (1966) to the present. It's breath as well as it's depth. There is more than meets the eye.

    My two cents on this point.

    In the meantime, good luck in your endeavors and studies at your dojo. It is a worthy wish.
    ____________

    Laurie Wise FSA Scot.

    Kirby Wise-Fraser FSA Scot. & Son
    Arms and Armour
    Last edited by Laurie Wise; 08-07-2006 at 12:38 AM.

  8. #8
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    Hi Barrett, welcome to the forums, and thank you for the lengthy introduction.

    Regarding Dacian arms and armour, I'm afraid I can't get much further than referring to Osprey's "Rome's Enemies 1: Germanics and Dacians". It isn't perfect and there are flaws, but it'll get you further than Wikipedia. If you can't find a copy, contact me by PM.

    Btw, I could use some goose wings. Trade for a book?
    Hwęšere žęr fuse feorran cwoman
    to žam ęšelinge. - Dream of the Rood


    "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
    "Yes...it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
    - Lord Melchett and Lord Edmund Blackadder

  9. #9
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    Re: Dacian armour, and falx.

    Originally posted by Barrett Hiebert
    Also was chain mail, and scale armour devised and designed by the Celts, and what period of time was that?
    The earliest confirmed example of mail (don't call it chain mail) was found in Ciumesti and dates to around 5th-4th century BC. The Roman author Varro also wrote that mail was a Celtic invention.

  10. #10

    SCA, Dacian arms and armour.

    Greetings,

    I find the help offered other than just the topic of Dacian arms and armour very inciteful, and will try to answer as best as possible as I know how.

    First off,

    Laurie Wise:

    There is nothing wrong in exploring the Society for Creative Anachronism as well. The organization is world wide with many historical periods as "Living History" and represent as well as various weapons style of fighting. There are quite afew Living History reenactors who are involved with Western and Japanese Martial weapons arts within the SCA.
    Yes, I do understand you crystal clear, and it was not I who had a problem with myself joining the SCA, but my father. I do greatly enjoy the pursuit of my own interests, and I greatly think that the flexible organisation (as you have such a wide range of studies to choose from formed my main interest) of the SCA. I personally would greatly enjoy learning to fight as my people of old respectively. And it would also be most excellent to be with people who understand my passion of learning, and re-learning history in a modern context. After I found I could not fight anymore with my father, about joining the SCA; I was at least complacent in the thought of at least joining a dojo, thus I am learning the Shinkage Ryu Style. It may not be my dream, to fight as my ancestors, but it is better than nothing at the time. On a happier note, only grade 12 left, then I'll be able to do what I want.

    I would beg to differ with you on this. As mentioned, t's basic Tournament fighting is rooted in Western Sword traditions. It is not just swing at your opponent and bash away. There ARE Techniques, Stances, forms of "Kata" and Discipline in it's forms of fighting. Any serious Martial Art has their own versions of these. In the SCA, these are taught to the new fighter by more experienced ones. By the Knights to their squires and so on. You will find many adherents of the very arts your father and teacher want you to learn. Do not dismiss what is not known to you right now.
    I apologize if I offended you, but what I meant to say was: I understand that in the SCA, there are techniques, stances, and forms of kata, and discipline in its forms of fighting. I even learned the rudimentary stance and technique, of sword and shield (which we all must learn first) with my good friend Mike Timothy and I still remember them to this day. I also understand that in every serious martial are their are different variations of the above. And I personally really like how, the "knights" teach the "squires", the more experienced teach the less. I will not dismiss what is not known to me, and that is a very good lesson to learn, so I thank you for the kind.

    One persuading reason of which I was unable to join the SCA; was no matter how fun, or truely exciting the SCA was; it was not rooted in tradition and was not made for the practicality of incapacitating, killing an opponent in a real swordfight, and that the techniques, stances, kata, disciplineand that the techniques, stances, kata, discipline
    As for my above quote which you adressed quite adequately: I respect my father, even when I think his rules are not sufficient to meet my needs, and his word is my bain sometimes, and others my freedom to fly. But, I apologize and from further looking back, and reasoning with myself; I find that my father didn't like the idea from the very start, as I told him the way to start off, was to use armour from the "blue plastic garbage bins" and work your way up from there. I was not overly thrilled at this part, but was eager to work my way up there to producing authentic armour of my chosen time period, which I have been sadly unable to do. My father understood the sense that all arts, especially ones such as a classical japanese swordsmanship art were to be transible to other aspects of life, as you said:

    As for actual sword use, the SCA is replete with tales where, in defense of themselves or others, their weapons skills and discipline have been used. These are not just anecodotal
    either.
    I do believe that to be true, but for my father, he believes in practicality of solid proof. I should of said that due to his reasoning, I choose this path for he took karate for 7 years, and saw the practicality of training in a martial arts that was founded and revitalized through time as more and more succesful ways were encountered. The same was his belief (from my point of view) with talking with him of the same of kenjutsu; that it was an art that was practically devised, designed, taught, and then revolutionized due to necessity. My father had not seen the practicality of SCA, and even when I showed him the Armour regulations, Blade length rules, what the SCA was, and where to contact the leading officials, and how to sign up; he still did not go for it. I make amends that I take back what I said before, for the evidence, and partly, (I just had to realize it myself), is that the SCA is very practical, and you can definately learn alot.

    The organization does promote the Ideal of Chivalry as it should have been. It does promote "The Way of the Warrior" very much like the Code you speak of. Of "strengthening the mind and body....." Of how the code does translate into real life. The SCA is old enough that several generations have grown up within it. There are grandchildren now who are growing up with the firm ideals of "right and proper living".
    Most definately you are correct. That is one reason why I am so interested in the SCA or any such thing is the idea of right, and justice, of chilvalry. I try and work such virtues into everday life as they are most important, and lead to you being just a much better person personality wise, and characterly.

    The SCA is not just roleplaying. It is not Fantasy/ LARP. Nor is it a "cult". It is one style of Living History Reenacting. With an end point of the beginning of the 17th Century, you can take it as far back you wish. Taking and developing a personna based on one's heritage, or historical interest has been one of it's entry/ appeals for many. With others, it is just a way of "play acting" until they finally decide to do more. There are those who strive for authencity to a fault. Others who just try to learn as much as they can and do what they can. Art, Music, Sciences, age old skills revived. Vast amount of research goes on and historical that rivals anything you would find in museums or university classes. You want to know more about Romano Dacian weaponry and armour? You will find others who have similar interests and can help you look further. In fact, this site is one start: The Armour Archive I am sure you will find some help there with your questions.
    I for one am most impressed with the style of the historical re-enactment of the SCA. You are correct, that for me, taking and developing a personna based on one's heritage, or historical interest has been my reasoning for joining the SCA. I for one would like to strive for as much authenticity as possible. I would also like to thankyou for the site; hopefully I will be able to find what I need. But in truth, I personally have fallen in love with the advice, comments, and criticismn, and such a friendly feel, that the occupants of SFI has given to me. Thankyou SFI!

    However, not all SCA groups are alike. In some you will find definate time periods represented while in others a mixture. Some might be put off by seeing so many periods/cultures in one spot. Samurai, Vikings, High Middle Ages. Spartans in Hoplite armour fighting against warriors in 14th Century Bascinet Armour on the Tourny field.
    I personally for one, even not as authentic as the age, or real life of course at a certain time period, find that it is wonderful that I can experience so many different warrior cultures of different ages at a time.

    Can 16th Century Samurai weapon techniques be used against 16th Century English/Spanish? Just how would their armour stand up against each other? I have seen this in masse at the Estrella War last year where just such a Japanese Household fielded a group of Samurai using the rattan "swords" and polearms against armoured Elizabethan foot soldiers and theirs.
    I find even though this is not truely authentic for its corresponding time periods; it is still interesting to see the different culture armour and arms faction. But if you follow the natural, logical step in the history of warfare, you would see that both sides would compensate for the weaknesses, or advantages of the foe. In this day and age, we are sadly unable to re-enact a real battle of ancient times.

    The point is you are not limited in your horizons. I do not know what the Edmonton Barony's makeup is like or it's smaller shires/households. But I do know, you never judge a book by it's cover.
    I understand that I am no way limited in my horizons, just that theyr'e are barriers at the time. And you are correct, you never judge a book by a cover, and I have joined the Barony of Borealis, which is the Edmonton one, but am still unable to go to a tavern meet sadly. Though I am still trying to get in touch with my good and only real life SCA friend Mike Timothy. Going to have to phone him again!

    In closing, I have been a member of the SCA since 1971 and my husband, Kirby Wise-Fraser, since 1968. We both hold honors within it for what we do and how we have helped others. Have seen it from nearly the very beginning (1966) to the present. It's breath as well as it's depth. There is more than meets the eye.
    I am honoured M'ady to be in the prescence of one so devoted, and kind in her speech and word. The same goes for your husband, M'Lady. Your wisdom will not be forgotten, and I hope to talk to you again.

    On a more serious note,I checked your profile and found the experience of your husband most intriguing. I for one have been wanting to learn bladesmithing, and armoursmithing all my life. If I may ask a bold statement, would your husband be into the profession of taking apprentices; I would be yearning to learn anything, even of how to get started. I would gladly make a commitment. I know just like swordtraining and fighting that I would not make a superb fighter, but would have to work at it, and what you put into it, you get out of it. Also, I know naturals didn't get as good as they are today from just being natural at it. Thankyou for your wise and kind-hearted words, and I hope to hear from you soon, so PM me please (or reply to me here) please and thankyou. I also hope I do not impede on your busy schedule of life. Thanks for caring.

    I will answer your latest post, as quickly as I can. Thankyou very much for your patience.

    Now I must adress the rest of my gracious friends.

    Paul Hansen:

    Hi Barrett, welcome to the forums, and thank you for the lengthy introduction.
    No problem; you know you've been the person who has mostly helped me in all my threads. For that I must graciously thank you.

    Regarding Dacian arms and armour, I'm afraid I can't get much further than referring to Osprey's "Rome's Enemies 1: Germanics and Dacians". It isn't perfect and there are flaws, but it'll get you further than Wikipedia. If you can't find a copy, contact me by PM.
    Thanks for this; I'll definately try to find a copy, whenever I can from a local chapter's. I've heard of its flaws, and that it's quite sparse in information, but that it has nice illustrations. I do agree; it will get me further than Wikipedia. If I can't find a copy, I'll definately find one.

    Btw, I could use some goose wings. Trade for a book?
    Most definatelyl. I'll go out the back 40 and dig him back up for you!!

    Thanks for your replies, mighty helpful all around.

    Dan Howard:

    Also was chain mail, and scale armour devised and designed by the Celts, and what period of time was that?
    The earliest confirmed example of mail (don't call it chain mail) was found in Ciumesti and dates to around 5th-4th century BC. The Roman author Varro also wrote that mail was a Celtic invention.
    Thankyou for adressing my question. You help in so many little, but important ways. Yes, you are correct of the "chain mail", isn't that a modern term? Ciiumesti, what is the history of this place, and where is it geograpahically located? And the writing's of the Roman author Varro, in most interesting. What was his disposition on such terms as an author of his time? Thankyou again, and hopefully someone, or yourself can answer my questions. Have a good day!

    Thankyou all for the excellent findings and discussions!!!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert
    Last edited by Barrett Hiebert; 08-07-2006 at 03:57 PM.

  11. #11
    No, I was not offended. I do understand your situation.

    When I first joined the SCA, some new fighters were still using reinforced freon cans and "carpet" armour as their first equipment. (Plastic "Kydex" was not invented then and NO PLASTIC was allowed for years) It all had to be mail, plate, leather, padding .....and yes, carpet as a last resort. But as time went on, the rules became harsher with peer pressure that reflected the push to become more authentic within the constraints of SCA Tourny combat.

    There was no commercially made armour available except from a bareful like Kirby (and when he joined.....there were NONE) Mostly it was done by individuals or later household armour guilds formed to fill the need for more/better protection. Just as you, the individual's historical interest helped fuel how the armourer's craft was reborn. Since the very late 70s, there were more and by the early 80s, Armourer's Craft had blossomed. This is the same with Swordmaking as well and it's actual use outside of Hollywood/theater choreography. William Hobbs and his ilk helped inspire others and more "Schools of the Sword" focusing on the Western Sword Arts which lanquished for so long. That the Japanese held such reverence for theirs despite the aftermath of Perry's visit is a testiment to the realization of what if truly being a Warrior. But they are not alone, just Westerners have become more familar after forgetting their own.

    As mentioned, the SCA started out as High Middle Ages/Elizabethian Rennaissance but that did not stop other interests from becoming a part of the mix.

    When Clavell's "SHOGUN" was published and the TV mini series came out in the 70s, (coupled with all the Oriental Martial Arts interest too) There were scores of Gaijin striving to bring the Way of the Samurai.

    Costuming and all the rest went the same route. If your father was able to attend an Arts and Sciences jurying, he would find it rivals anything done or made in their respective periods.

    But for many outsiders, they dont always see the positive and possibilies the SCA can provide. They just see a bunch of weekenders bashing away or some strangely costumed people running around as if "play acting". Worse, there have been some allegations of "cultish" activities because of wearing costumes, acting strangely, taking wierd names and gathering in largish "tournys". But they will gawk and have fun at commerical RennFaires.

    Never thinking some of those same people are those "strange" SCA folk.

    Maybe someday your father will realize this.

  12. #12

    SCA, but lets try and stay on the main topic, Dacian Arms and Armour.

    Greetings,

    Laurie Wise
    No, I was not offended. I do understand your situation.
    Thankyou for understanding.

    When I first joined the SCA, some new fighters were still using reinforced freon cans and "carpet" armour as their first equipment. (Plastic "Kydex" was not invented then and NO PLASTIC was allowed for years) It all had to be mail, plate, leather, padding .....and yes, carpet as a last resort. But as time went on, the rules became harsher with peer pressure that reflected the push to become more authentic within the constraints of SCA Tourny combat.
    I'm glad that the rules became harsher due to peer pressure to become more authentic as it reflects on the seriousness and the passion of the people who take part in such endeauvors.
    ; of course while staying within the constraints of SCA Tourny armour which is quite strict, but they are their most definately for a reason.

    There was no commercially made armour available except from a bareful like Kirby (and when he joined.....there were NONE) Mostly it was done by individuals or later household armour guilds formed to fill the need for more/better protection. Just as you, the individual's historical interest helped fuel how the armourer's craft was reborn. Since the very late 70s, there were more and by the early 80s, Armourer's Craft had blossomed. This is the same with Swordmaking as well and it's actual use outside of Hollywood/theater choreography. William Hobbs and his ilk helped inspire others and more "Schools of the Sword" focusing on the Western Sword Arts which lanquished for so long. That the Japanese held such reverence for theirs despite the aftermath of Perry's visit is a testiment to the realization of what if truly being a Warrior. But they are not alone, just Westerners have become more familar after forgetting their own.
    I'm glad that the society had progressed as logically, authentically and as well as it did. I personally would like to further the Armourer's Craft, and Swordmaking/Bladesmithing. Yes, I do respect the Japanese for the steadfastness to the testiment of realization what a warrior is. And it is most wonderful that we Westerner's are remembering ours after forgetting as you said.

    As mentioned, the SCA started out as High Middle Ages/Elizabethian Rennaissance but that did not stop other interests from becoming a part of the mix.
    When I first read this, I was quite scared, thinking that my heritage and "preferred" warrior class, culture of a specific time would not be allowed. But after I saw people re-enacting hoplites, the idea stuck, thank god for modifications in the system!

    When Clavell's "SHOGUN" was published and the TV mini series came out in the 70s, (coupled with all the Oriental Martial Arts interest too) There were scores of Gaijin striving to bring the Way of the Samurai.
    Yes, I definately believe it. We are quite controlled and moved by the televisoin industry in some, or many cases. What is the definition of Gaijin? I believe I've never heard that term before.

    Costuming and all the rest went the same route. If your father was able to attend an Arts and Sciences jurying, he would find it rivals anything done or made in their respective periods.
    That is very nice to know of one so experienced, and will definately use it in my benefit.

    [QUOTE]But for many outsiders, they dont always see the positive and possibilies the SCA can provide. They

  13. #13

    SCA, but lets try and stay on the main topic, Dacian Arms and Armour.

    Greetings,

    Laurie Wise
    No, I was not offended. I do understand your situation.
    Thankyou for understanding.

    When I first joined the SCA, some new fighters were still using reinforced freon cans and "carpet" armour as their first equipment. (Plastic "Kydex" was not invented then and NO PLASTIC was allowed for years) It all had to be mail, plate, leather, padding .....and yes, carpet as a last resort. But as time went on, the rules became harsher with peer pressure that reflected the push to become more authentic within the constraints of SCA Tourny combat.
    I'm glad that the rules became harsher due to peer pressure to become more authentic as it reflects on the seriousness and the passion of the people who take part in such endeauvors; of course while staying within the constraints of SCA Tourny armour which is quite strict, but they are their most definately for a reason.

    There was no commercially made armour available except from a bareful like Kirby (and when he joined.....there were NONE) Mostly it was done by individuals or later household armour guilds formed to fill the need for more/better protection. Just as you, the individual's historical interest helped fuel how the armourer's craft was reborn. Since the very late 70s, there were more and by the early 80s, Armourer's Craft had blossomed. This is the same with Swordmaking as well and it's actual use outside of Hollywood/theater choreography. William Hobbs and his ilk helped inspire others and more "Schools of the Sword" focusing on the Western Sword Arts which lanquished for so long. That the Japanese held such reverence for theirs despite the aftermath of Perry's visit is a testiment to the realization of what if truly being a Warrior. But they are not alone, just Westerners have become more familar after forgetting their own.
    I'm glad that the society had progressed as logically, authentically and as well as it did. I personally would like to further the Armourer's Craft, and Swordmaking/Bladesmithing. Yes, I do respect the Japanese for the steadfastness to the testiment of realization what a warrior is. And it is most wonderful that we Westerner's are remembering ours after forgetting as you said.

    As mentioned, the SCA started out as High Middle Ages/Elizabethian Rennaissance but that did not stop other interests from becoming a part of the mix.
    When I first read this, I was quite scared, thinking that my heritage and "preferred" warrior class, culture of a specific time would not be allowed. But after I saw people re-enacting hoplites, the idea stuck, thank god for modifications in the system!

    When Clavell's "SHOGUN" was published and the TV mini series came out in the 70s, (coupled with all the Oriental Martial Arts interest too) There were scores of Gaijin striving to bring the Way of the Samurai.
    Yes, I definately believe it. We are quite controlled and moved by the televisoin industry in some, or many cases. What is the definition of Gaijin? I believe I've never heard that term before.

    Costuming and all the rest went the same route. If your father was able to attend an Arts and Sciences jurying, he would find it rivals anything done or made in their respective periods.
    That is very nice to know of one so experienced, and will definately use it in my benefit.

    But for many outsiders, they dont always see the positive and possibilies the SCA can provide. They just see a bunch of weekenders bashing away or some strangely costumed people running around as if "play acting". Worse, there have been some allegations of "cultish" activities because of wearing costumes, acting strangely, taking wierd names and gathering in largish "tournys". But they will gawk and have fun at commerical RennFaires.
    Yes, I understand this to be true, as of my father's personal opinion. He has said in latest discussions that he has not had a problem with it, but still he will not allow me to go to Tavern; even when I have given him all the required information. It is frustrating, but I really have to work on my atitude doing house work. There is also room for improvement, and I'm young.

    Never thinking some of those same people are those "strange" SCA folk.
    Never entered my mind, all the more intrigued and glued to the idea, I was.

    Maybe someday your father will realize this.
    I hope he will. Hopefully I'll be able to persuade him to come with me to Tavern one day, and show him all the practical and constructive training, and historical studies that I've been doing.

    Thanks again for writing, and have a good night!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert

  14. #14

    Getting down to Business (duh, duh, duh!!) on Dacian Arms and Armour!

    Greetings,

    As I am wanting to learn more about Dacian arms and armour, I shall try and water your appetite with supposedly knowledgeable information I have found, included with many pics! Now I know the suspectbility of Wikipedia (due to being people-mass written) will have some flaws. I am willing to look past that, and I know people will have comments and criticism on my research and such things, but knowing that this is a very knowledgeable community from my experiences, I hope I will recieve excellent feedback on the authenticity of my research.

    Warning: Many links, but they are very enjoyable in my opinion.

    First off, I shall delve into all that I could find of the Dacian Falx:

    Here you can find the definition of the falx, and related links at the bottom of the page are also very useful in learning more about the flax and its usefulness. Just for your viewing pleasure I shall put them up.

    Falx definition of off Wikipedia

    I find this site very resouceful, and that looking further is backed up by reasonable evidence, and is a wealth of information specifically on the Dacians. I really have to print this off for future use!

    Dacian Everything

    Just looking at my multitude of papers, I did print most of this stuff of. Woohoo!

    As you can see from the page, there are many subtitles: The Weapon, The Warrior, The Iron, The Art, Ytopia, and The Bow.

    This is also most interesting.

    Falx as a tool.

    Here is Dacians being portrayed on Trajan's Monument with one-handed falxes.

    One-handed Falx weilders on Trajan's Column

    Second Picture of One-handed Falx weilders on Trajan's column.

    And let's all not forget Steven Piffley, the Man of the Hour! ...
    and the look of a real, authentic falx, and of its destructive capability.

    Steven Piffley 1

    Steven Piffley 2


    Steven Piffley 3

    Steven Piffley 4

    The Dacians were a people of the Thracians, so this site I found has some connecting evidence, just go from this thread to the next one I give. This shows the Rhomphaia, a weapon of the Thracians, be sure to read the Differences from a Falx.

    Rhomphaia

    Here is a website, yet again, backed up by historical evidence (not in the best shape in my mind the site, but...) which is a wealth of knowledge of the Thracians, who the Dacians were derived from Thracian stock.

    Thracian Wealth of Knowledge Site

    Here are weapons, and altogether armour that would of been historically used by Thracians, maybe Dacians in ancient times. At the bottom of this page shows the variety of weapons used.

    Thracian Weapon Page Introduction

    Here is shown from the same site, all about the Thracian warrior, which included the Peltast, of which the Peltast tactic originated from.

    Thracian warriors

    The Thracian Rhomphaia, very similar to the Dacian Falx:

    Thracian, and Falx

    Thracian Rhomphaia 1

    Thracian Rhomphaia 2

    Here is Thracian armour, which is most interesting.

    Thracian Armour

    Here is Thracian battles reported from historical authors such as Plutarch and Homer.

    Thracian Battles

    Now moving on to Armour respectively:

    Thracian Shields:

    Thracian Shields

    Thracian Greaves:

    Thracian Greaves

    Thracian Helmets, most interesting!

    Thracian Helmets

    Does anyone know what the "alopekis" helmet is and looks like?

    Body Armour:

    Body Armour

    Since Thracians/Dacians are inventors of the Peltast Tactic...

    Thracian Peltast

    Just to end it off, some pictures of some armour and weapons which may interest ye, and get the brain going!

    The shield on the far left, that is a theuros, and who designed and devised the shield, which can be seen as #3?

    Theuros

    A reproduction of a Dacian/Thracian warrior. See how he is armed with a theuros, thracian helmet, greave, curved falx, and a pair of javelins, and does that look like an akinakes to some on his waist?

    Thracian Warrior

    A warrior charge!!!

    Warriors armed with Falxes and Theuros.

    Thracian Helmets, and derivatives. Does anyone know by chance who the Chalcidian's were, and why the thracian helmet was designed as it is?

    Thracian Helmets and Variants

    A picture of a peltast, and a nice pelte!

    Peltast and his pelte.

    A Dacian Warrior as drawn for the concept art for the game Getica. Don't know the authenticity of this, but the falx, and tatoos sure look awesome in my opinion.

    Dacian Warrior Concept Art

    And this is the end of all the information I have to bless you with. Thanks for reading, and please reply back as quickly as possible.

    The time period I was hoping to re-create was the Dacian in their flourishing period, and the war against Trajan from 85 AD-89 AD, in which Decebalus was their leader. Thanks so much again, and I promise, if you answer, I will reply as fast I can and as full as I can.

    Barrett Michael Hiebert
    Last edited by Barrett Hiebert; 08-07-2006 at 10:15 PM.

  15. #15
    Yes, getting back to Dacia, it's weapons and armour.

    I just found this
    thread posted in the Drachenwald.com forums. Thought you might be interested.

    A SCA shire has been formed in Romania with one of the first events to be held atCorvins Castle This thread was started by Dizo Diurdanus Lupus (aka Romulus Stoica in real life) who lives in Hunedora, Translyvannia Romania and is the first SCA contact there in Romania. ("The Knowne Worlde" Grows!)

    Apparently his SCA group has invited other Romanian non SCA reenactment groups (from Medias and Timisoara.....and Hungarian!) to this event. They organized under Romanian Law as a nonprofit reenactment group "The Order of the Knights of Hunedora" until they become offically a SCA Shire. His group's website here

    We will have medieval knights but also dacian, celtic, sarmatian, scythian and barbarian warriors from I-st to V-th centuries.
    Not a big group (8 members so far) but from small seeds, great forests grow. In the beginning of the SCA, Baronies were established with as many. The website will be expanded though.

    Dizo writes that Hunedora county was:
    "The capital of the Dacian kingdom, Sarmisegetusa Regia, the capital of the roman province of Dacia, Ulpia Traiana Sarmisegetusa, medieval churches from XI to XV centuries, and lots of keeps, fortresses and castles...
    Excatly the reason to keep an eye on those forums. At least you can make a few contacts for your research through it.

    The Kingdom of Drachenwald encompasses all of Europe, basically. With additions in South Africa, Isreal and other areas where SCA service personnel are stationed. Originally it was evolved from SCA members stationed in Europe. By the early 80s, it was a Principality and became a SCA Kingdom in the early 90s.

    By the way, there are a couple of Baronies in Japan too. They are part of the Kingdom of Caid.

    By the way, "Gaijin" means "an outsider" or "a foreigner". In SHOGUN, the hero was called "baka gaijin" (Stupid Foreigner) until he gained respect and became known as "Anjin-san" (Peaceful Awareness). It is an abbreviation of "gaikokujin" meaning "a person from a country other than your own" aka "Foreigner".

    The 1980 miniseries was 10 episodes long and made a big impact on many SCA "Gaijin". All for the good, really.

  16. #16
    Here is a "Rhompia" thread showing a modern reproduction and discussion about it and Thracian/Dacian weapons in general.

    This was based on photos of an actual piece the customer wanted Kirby to make this from. As I mentioned in that thread, some of you may recognize the actual photos from the one Mr. Piscopo had on a website. I wrote to him with some questions about this piece and Kirby's intentions of making one. Mr. Piscopo had offered to send this one for us to look at but I had to decline his gracious offer. I had hoped to send him photos after it was finally done, but learned he died. I think he would have liked to have seen this as he mentioned in another forum no one was making a Rhomphia and would have liked to see one made. Well, at least some of you will see it now. His photos were good enough for Kirby to work from and the customer did have some resource material showing others with text to help flesh out some details. The rest was up to Kirby's expertise and "eye".

    And Believe me the original was THAT long and it's reincarnation handles quite well in experienced hands. Extremely well balanced.

    Here is the Machaira mentioned in the thread. This photo was taken by the owner. He had an actual piece for Kirby to use a reference. The scabbard made for it was based on photos of another whose mounts were intact (not shown). The blade's engraved design was taken from the photographed reference and was repeated on the Rhomphia as well. Making them a pair.

    To us, The Macheria is "dagger" size to any one living now although considered a "sword" then. As the inside curve is the slash/impact area, I can see it being a very fearsome weapon in the right hands.

  17. #17

    Rhomphaia, and Falx

    Greetings,

    I just found this
    Most excellent, I have just registered with the forum and look forward to talking to him, and learning more.

    A SCA shire has been formed in Romania with one of the first events to be held atCorvins Castle This thread was started by Dizo Diurdanus Lupus (aka Romulus Stoica in real life) who lives in Hunedora, Translyvannia Romania and is the first SCA contact there in Romania. ("The Knowne Worlde" Grows!)
    That is most excellent!

    Apparently his SCA group has invited other Romanian non SCA reenactment groups (from Medias and Timisoara.....and Hungarian!) to this event. They organized under Romanian Law as a nonprofit reenactment group "The Order of the Knights of Hunedora" until they become offically a SCA Shire. His group's website here
    Congratulations and most excellent for them!

    Not a big group (8 members so far) but from small seeds, great forests grow. In the beginning of the SCA, Baronies were established with as many. The website will be expanded though.
    I, even though live in Canada hope to journey back to my homecoutry when I'm 18, and hopefully to join this shire.

    We will have medieval knights but also dacian, celtic, sarmatian, scythian and barbarian warriors from I-st to V-th centuries.
    That is most excellent to hear!

    The capital of the Dacian kingdom, Sarmisegetusa Regia, the capital of the roman province of Dacia, Ulpia Traiana Sarmisegetusa, medieval churches from XI to XV centuries, and lots of keeps, fortresses and castles...
    Ouite a historical, and authentic place to be to hold the center of operations!

    Excatly the reason to keep an eye on those forums. At least you can make a few contacts for your research through it.
    I must thank you whole-heartedly for it!

    The Kingdom of Drachenwald encompasses all of Europe, basically. With additions in South Africa, Isreal and other areas where SCA service personnel are stationed. Originally it was evolved from SCA members stationed in Europe. By the early 80s, it was a Principality and became a SCA Kingdom in the early 90s.
    I alsways wanted to know if their was one in Romania, and you have most definately answered that one for me.

    By the way, "Gaijin" means "an outsider" or "a foreigner". In SHOGUN, the hero was called "baka gaijin" (Stupid Foreigner) until he gained respect and became known as "Anjin-san" (Peaceful Awareness). It is an abbreviation of "gaikokujin" meaning "a person from a country other than your own" aka "Foreigner".
    Thankyou for the definition. I was quite unfamiliar with such terms, but now I know.

    The 1980 miniseries was 10 episodes long and made a big impact on many SCA "Gaijin". All for the good, really.
    Yes, you are correct, as long as it fuels the authentic imagination, we will still, and alsways be in business!

    Here is a "Rhompia" thread showing a modern reproduction and discussion about it and Thracian/Dacian weapons in general.
    Most excellent thread M'Lady, and your husband looks like the stuff of legends of blacksmith's. Beautiful Rhomphaia, and also excellent discussion. Thankyou for bringing this up.

    This was based on photos of an actual piece the customer wanted Kirby to make this from. As I mentioned in that thread, some of you may recognize the actual photos from the one Mr. Piscopo had on a website. I wrote to him with some questions about this piece and Kirby's intentions of making one. Mr. Piscopo had offered to send this one for us to look at but I had to decline his gracious offer. I had hoped to send him photos after it was finally done, but learned he died. I think he would have liked to have seen this as he mentioned in another forum no one was making a Rhomphia and would have liked to see one made. Well, at least some of you will see it now. His photos were good enough for Kirby to work from and the customer did have some resource material showing others with text to help flesh out some details. The rest was up to Kirby's expertise and "eye".
    I'm most pleased, how historical accurate, with the supplied information that it was. I am sorry to hear that Mr. Piscopo died and that his wishes in the end, though not seeing them, was allowed to be seen by hopefuls such as myself and others. Your husband sure looks like he has a very prestigious expertise and "eye", if you know what I mean.

    And Believe me the original was THAT long and it's reincarnation handles quite well in experienced hands. Extremely well balanced
    Oh, I believe it, and a most amazing weapon it is. Even of all the research I've done, does the Rhomphaia lean more towards a polearm, or a two-handed sword?

    Here is the Machaira mentioned in the thread. This photo was taken by the owner. He had an actual piece for Kirby to use a reference. The scabbard made for it was based on photos of another whose mounts were intact (not shown). The blade's engraved design was taken from the photographed reference and was repeated on the Rhomphia as well. Making them a pair.
    That is most interesting, and a very nice piece.

    To us, The Macheria is "dagger" size to any one living now although considered a "sword" then. As the inside curve is the slash/impact area, I can see it being a very fearsome weapon in the right hands.
    Oh, most definately, it could deliver very, very devestating slashes and cuts.

    Thankyou for everything and hopefully we can continue our discussions.

    Barrett Hiebert

  18. #18
    It is definately a two handed weapon. However, the balance point is at the fingerstop, so possible for some single handed use if held there. But definately as a Great Sword or a short polearm.

    Looking at where the short bone grip and upper hand placement does offer these two technique variations. Nor does the slight downward curve prevent it from being used for stabbing thrusts. It "points" very well and not strictly a slashing only weapon.

    The person I watched taking it through it's paces was a Great Sword afficenado and adept at both Western/ Oriental forms. He remarked on it's ease and versitility to be used both. Although Kirby sharpened the inside curve to the tip, the owner took it further and it is as "razor".

    In older translations of the Bible, this is Death's "Great Scythe/Sword" as one of the four horsemen. Also what the chief demons use to "reap" the sinners with. A comment it's terrible reputation and the skill of the Thracian warrior.

    As mentioned in that thread's discussion, there was no evidence of a wrapping as was done but would make sense. For whatever reasons, the Thracian Rhomphia have not been found with longer wood grips as the Dacian Falx. We pored through all the texts the owner had on the subject and as you saw in Mr. Piscopo's photo, there was just the swelling for that small grip. He had another, shorter Rhomphia on the same site with a similar swelling for a small grip.

    This is the attachment of it:
    Last edited by Laurie Wise; 08-08-2006 at 05:52 PM.

  19. #19
    Oops. Had to resize it
    This is the attachment of it:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #20

    Rhomphaia, and Dacian

    Greetings,

    Thankyou so much for the wonderful explanation to my questions. You are always so gracious to answer any questions I have.

    It is definately a two handed weapon. However, the balance point is at the fingerstop, so possible for some single handed use if held there. But definately as a Great Sword or a short polearm.
    Most definately I knew it was a two-handed weapon, but was unsure of if or not that it leaned into the pole-arm category. I thankyou for rectifying my confusion. Have you seen any historically accurate falxes, and how much do they differ from the rhomphaia in the slightest terms, meaning, when is a falx considered a falx, for when is the weapon have a slightest "sickle" curve or when does it have a great "sickle" curve. Would the rhomphaia your husband designed be considered a falx due to its slight but noticeable curve? For I remember from considerable evidence that a Rhomphaia only had a slight curve and not so much as you have described; but I mean no offence, as your considerable research is much more accurate and faithful than mine as you must know the correctness of your productions for you are running a business. Also, as you talked about Steven Piffley's model and how your husbands and his differed, could you please find the link for me that reiterates me to see the falx he designed under "Reconstructions" as I have been unable to find it. Thankyou very much and I hope you have more luck then I do.

    Looking at where the short bone grip and upper hand placement does offer these two technique variations. Nor does the slight downward curve prevent it from being used for stabbing thrusts. It "points" very well and not strictly a slashing only weapon.
    I understand this and find that the blade would be allowed for stabbing thrusts, but would a falx be also devised and designed within its historical authentic limits to be an effective slash, cut, thrust and pierce weapon? Maybe you would be able to find a comparison of a Rhomphaia and a Falx? That would be just wonderful.

    The person I watched taking it through it's paces was a Great Sword afficenado and adept at both Western/ Oriental forms. He remarked on it's ease and versitility to be used both. Although Kirby sharpened the inside curve to the tip, the owner took it further and it is as "razor".
    That is most excellent, and I wouldn't have any doubts either of the weapon; It looks most fearsome; a weapon I would be proud to weild.

    In older translations of the Bible, this is Death's "Great Scythe/Sword" as one of the four horsemen. Also what the chief demons use to "reap" the sinners with. A comment it's terrible reputation and the skill of the Thracian warrior.
    Well, that is a most interesting analogy also, and it does complement on the skill of the Thracian warrior.

    As mentioned in that thread's discussion, there was no evidence of a wrapping as was done but would make sense. For whatever reasons, the Thracian Rhomphia have not been found with longer wood grips as the Dacian Falx. We pored through all the texts the owner had on the subject and as you saw in Mr. Piscopo's photo, there was just the swelling for that small grip. He had another, shorter Rhomphia on the same site with a similar swelling for a small grip.
    I have found that for all the historical weapons of Thracian Rhomphaia and Dacian Falx, that the grip has never been more than the length of the blade, also that the tang descended all the way down into the handle, and that the tang was also the length of the blade. Also what is the swelling of a blade? And the pictures are most excellent and very informative.

    This is the attachment of it:
    Most excellent picture! Thankyou so much for you time and effort in all your endeauvors, and I see, that you are not apprenticing anyone, but could you give me any advice as how to get started? Thankyou very much, hope to hear from you again, and have a good night!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert

  21. #21
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    Interesting thread people! Thanks!

    Originally posted by Laurie Wise
    In older translations of the Bible, this is Death's "Great Scythe/Sword" as one of the four horsemen. Also what the chief demons use to "reap" the sinners with. A comment it's terrible reputation and the skill of the Thracian warrior.
    Do you mean Revelations 6:8? If so, which translation?
    Hwęšere žęr fuse feorran cwoman
    to žam ęšelinge. - Dream of the Rood


    "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
    "Yes...it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
    - Lord Melchett and Lord Edmund Blackadder

  22. #22
    Greek.

    "Rhomphaia" is the Greek word used to describe the sword that proceeds from Jesus's mouth while riding from Heaven on his white horse: "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations......" Symbolically of course.

    The word "Rhomphaia" is generally translated into the English as "a large sword" or, according to one Greek Lexicon (Thayer) meaning: "a large" or "very long sword commonly worn on the right shoulder, made of iron, and used as an offensive weapon of slaughter".

    Sounds very much like a Rhomphaia!

    Overall, this word is used six times in Revelations to describe such a weapon. Visually speaking and historically, Death has had several "weapons" depending on the culture. In most Western, he is commonly shown using a Scythe rather than a "scythe like" sword as a Rhomphaia. But the "Pale Rider" does carry this "very long sword".


    By the way, Barrett, here are photos of a Falx being demonstrated at the Legio XX's "Roman Days" in 2003

    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxrig.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut1.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut2.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut3.jpg
    http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut4.jpg

    But I have not seen any Rhomphaia with a rivet holes in the "shank" except in the small grip area. This is what led to the discussion with the owner if the bare iron was wrapped with anything. This led to both Kirby and the owner's assessment that they may have been or some were so covered. If nothing else to help keep a firmer grip while in use or the very least to keep your hands from being burned on a hot day. Or freeze to it on cold winter one. The same reasoning behind making a scabbard for carrying and storage for it.

    Although most Falx, I have seen photos of show rivet holes for a two piece full wooden grip. Some did have "tangs". Here is one site showing one with a long tang.
    http://www.archaeology-romania.org/future-projects/

  23. #23
    Greetings,

    I have found your guy's and girl's help much useful and been having a wonderful time of the discussion of this thread. As I usually do, I shall address each of you in turn.

    Paul Hansen:

    Do you mean Revelations 6:8? If so, which translation?
    I really would like to know this too, as I looked at it today in my New Living Translation but could not find of no relation to what you stated. Also, have you recieved and read my PM, and how best would I order that book that you suggested? Thanks for all your help and have a good day.

    Laurie Wise:

    "Rhomphaia" is the Greek word used to describe the sword that proceeds from Jesus's mouth while riding from Heaven on his white horse: "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations......" Symbolically of course.
    That is most interesting, and intriguing to hear.

    The word "Rhomphaia" is generally translated into the English as "a large sword" or, according to one Greek Lexicon (Thayer) meaning: "a large" or "very long sword commonly worn on the right shoulder, made of iron, and used as an offensive weapon of slaughter".
    I had definately heard of this one before and thankyou for revitalizing it, but what is "Lexicon" meaning. I apologize for my innocence on such words and such.

    Overall, this word is used six times in Revelations to describe such a weapon. Visually speaking and historically, Death has had several "weapons" depending on the culture. In most Western, he is commonly shown using a Scythe rather than a "scythe like" sword as a Rhomphaia. But the "Pale Rider" does carry this "very long sword".
    That is most interesting that it is used as a description for when Jesus rides from Heaven with the sword in his mouth...but also portraying one of the Four Horses of the Apocalypse. Also, since the Rhomphaia is closely related to the Falx, was there any anatoical usuage of that word also?

    But I have not seen any Rhomphaia with a rivet holes in the "shank" except in the small grip area. This is what led to the discussion with the owner if the bare iron was wrapped with anything. This led to both Kirby and the owner's assessment that they may have been or some were so covered. If nothing else to help keep a firmer grip while in use or the very least to keep your hands from being burned on a hot day. Or freeze to it on cold winter one. The same reasoning behind making a scabbard for carrying and storage for it.
    So I'm most definately assuming from the information that you've just given me is that the shank was the handle of the blade. Also, your reasoning is very logical, assuming in my terms who wouldn't want to keep safe from the elements such a beautiful blade!!!

    Although most Falx, I have seen photos of show rivet holes for a two piece full wooden grip. Some did have "tangs". Here is one site showing one with a long tang.
    So, if a blade didn't have a tang, would it then be having rivet holes for a two piece full wooden grip, or would it have a tang and that also? Also, why would it have a two piece wooden grip instead of a one piece. Too long, not able to suffer the stresses of combat and have structural damage or was their another reason?

    Thanks so much for answering my questions as best as you could, and I hope to talk some more. I got in touch with SCA Romania and they are willing to help me learn more about the Dacians and all the rest. Thankyou so much for the link Mrs. Wise. You rock!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert

  24. #24
    "Lexicon" is from the Greek. Essentially a book of phrase and word definitions. Used interchangably with the Latin word "dictionary" (just consult a Thesarus). Specifically a Greek, Hebrew or Latin book with phrases and word definitions.

    So, if a blade didn't have a tang, would it then be having rivet holes for a two piece full wooden grip, ......
    Some would call the handle part a "tang" while others make a distinction between a piece having a "sword tang" and a "shaped tang/grip". The meaning of the latter is self explanatory. Because the Rhomphaia has a long, rounded part which is gripped in use but it also ends in a "shaped tang" for a two piece, rivetted handle. We have been calling it a "shank" instead. Apparently so has Mr. Piscopo. So, the Rhomphaia has three parts to it, Blade, shank and shaped grip. Saves alot of confusion here.

    The Dacian Falx has two. Blade and "tang" whether shaped or not.

    Also, why would it have a two piece wooden grip instead of a one piece.?
    Easier to replace if it broke. But then a shaped grip has it's strengths.

    Too long, not able to suffer the stresses of combat and have structural damage or was their another reason?
    If that were the case, then why dont Claymores, Landesknecht Great Swords and so many other large swords, have two piece rivetted only grips? But they do not and have long tangs that are wider at the blade shoulders that taper gradually (some more that others) to the end where the pommel is attached. Granted there are a few that do have riveted, shaped tangs but not many and are "localized" variations in some countries.

    There are techniques to burn guide holes into the wood block for the tangs to go through. Either with files or the tangs themselves are heated to burn the wood handle onto for a tight custom fit. In any case, these long tanged swords have stood up to all sorts of stresses of combat.

    Custom, culture, skill, battle tactics/weapon techniques and any number of reasons why the Dacians made the Falx handes that way. For that matter, why didnt they adopt the Thracian Rhomphaia instead? The Thracians were well known for their smiths skills in metal working. Perhaps some secrets were more guarded than others. But then the Dacians came abit after the Thracians. Their tactics served them quite well as did their particular weapons.

    Thanks so much for answering my questions as best as you could, and I hope to talk some more. I got in touch with SCA Romania and they are willing to help me learn more about the Dacians and all the rest. Thankyou so much for the link Mrs. Wise.
    GREAT!

    You rock
    Thanks...just doing what I do best.

  25. #25
    Greetings,

    Thanks for the fast reply back Mrs. Wise, to my many questions in my last thread.

    "Lexicon" is from the Greek. Essentially a book of phrase and word definitions. Used interchangably with the Latin word "dictionary" (just consult a Thesarus). Specifically a Greek, Hebrew or Latin book with phrases and word definitions.
    That is most interesting to know; it seems itself as if the word is under the thesarus-lexicon-dictionary, lol, .

    Some would call the handle part a "tang" while others make a distinction between a piece having a "sword tang" and a "shaped tang/grip". The meaning of the latter is self explanatory. Because the Rhomphaia has a long, rounded part which is gripped in use but it also ends in a "shaped tang" for a two piece, rivetted handle. We have been calling it a "shank" instead. Apparently so has Mr. Piscopo. So, the Rhomphaia has three parts to it, Blade, shank and shaped grip. Saves alot of confusion here.
    Most knowlegeable you are, but very self-explanatory. My only question is the "long rounded part" the tang? Also, most interesting name of use for the shank, where does the name originate in it's use, if you know not, then not greatly important, if you do, then please, the floor is all yours! I apologize for my confusion if it creates any confusion on your part.

    The Dacian Falx has two. Blade and "tang" whether shaped or not.
    That is nice to know, would you ever be able to have a shank though on a falx?

    Easier to replace if it broke. But then a shaped grip has it's strengths.
    What specific strengths are those?

    If that were the case, then why dont Claymores, Landesknecht Great Swords and so many other large swords, have two piece rivetted only grips? But they do not and have long tangs that are wider at the blade shoulders that taper gradually (some more that others) to the end where the pommel is attached. Granted there are a few that do have riveted, shaped tangs but not many and are "localized" variations in some countries.
    I don't know enough about bladesmithing to tell you the answer to the first rhetorical question, . My main question is what is a blade shoulder? Also, why would there be "localized" variations in some countries where their was no need to specify as you say further down that they suffered the stress and rigours of combat just fine and were still battle-worthy. Also, what would some of the strengths of a two-piece, riveted shaped tang other than more easier to replace, if broken?

    There are techniques to burn guide holes into the wood block for the tangs to go through. Either with files or the tangs themselves are heated to burn the wood handle onto for a tight custom fit. In any case, these long tanged swords have stood up to all sorts of stresses of combat.
    As, I was referring to this statement which I think is totally reputable throughout the history of great swords coming to think about it were as hardy as they were as great in stature.

    Custom, culture, skill, battle tactics/weapon techniques and any number of reasons why the Dacians made the Falx handes that way. For that matter, why didnt they adopt the Thracian Rhomphaia instead? The Thracians were well known for their smiths skills in metal working. Perhaps some secrets were more guarded than others. But then the Dacians came abit after the Thracians. Their tactics served them quite well as did their particular weapons.
    Again, I can't answer your second rhetorical question, but as you suggested it could be wholly for those number of reasons. You are correct that the Dacians, came abit after the Thracians, and that their tactics served them quite well as did their particular weapons as what they had and were used to. Also, would a falx be considered an exotic weapon? What makes an exotic weapon exotic?

    Thanks...just doing what I do best.
    Thanks again so much for your help, and I hope we can talk some more. Cya around!

    Barrett Michael Hiebert

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