Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: I need help with this sword

  1. #1

    I need help with this sword

    I am interested in the luristan sword of the picture. Can anybody tellme what do you think about it? If its a fake or a really ancient sword.
    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    10
    Where did u find this pic from?? I am interested in this kind of bronze sword too!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Black Hills of SD
    Posts
    1,926
    I think only an expert who examined it in person could tell you for sure. However, so many Luristan bronze swords turn up on the market that I personally suspect most are fakes. The safest thing if you want a genuine one is to buy it from a reputable dealer or from a knowledgeable collector.
    "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer."--Gen. George S. Patton

  4. #4
    It's either fake, or worse, illegally excavated and smuggled out of the country. There's a huge market at the moment for such artifacts, which results in a massive destruction of ancient sites in the middle-east (as well as eastern Europe). If you decide to buy such a piece, keep in mind that you're most likely financing the permanent destruction of sites that have managed to survive for thousands of years. Sorry if that comes over rather harsh, but that's the unfortunate reality that comes with collecting these pieces. Where archeologists try to preserve these sites for many future generations, or at least save what can be saved, they are being bulldozed by some people who want to make a quick buck on a massive scale.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    It's either fake, or worse, illegally excavated and smuggled out of the country. There's a huge market at the moment for such artifacts, which results in a massive destruction of ancient sites in the middle-east (as well as eastern Europe). If you decide to buy such a piece, keep in mind that you're most likely financing the permanent destruction of sites that have managed to survive for thousands of years. Sorry if that comes over rather harsh, but that's the unfortunate reality that comes with collecting these pieces. Where archeologists try to preserve these sites for many future generations, or at least save what can be saved, they are being bulldozed by some people who want to make a quick buck on a massive scale.
    Being a student of archaeology I can only say that what Jeroen is saying is sadly the truth; countries are having their cultural heritage stolen or copied and sold on on-line auctions like never before.
    The many cheap copies are also pressing the prices on the originals down - causing the looters to dig more and more in order to make the same amount of money.
    The real criminals are BTW not the looters, they are often left with wery few other choices in order to make a decent living - the real criminals are the middlemen and the buyers.


    /Jakob
    Jakob ElbŠk Egegaard Pedersen

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen View Post
    Being a student of archaeology I can only say that what Jeroen is saying is sadly the truth; countries are having their cultural heritage stolen or copied and sold on on-line auctions like never before.
    The many cheap copies are also pressing the prices on the originals down - causing the looters to dig more and more in order to make the same amount of money.
    The real criminals are BTW not the looters, they are often left with wery few other choices in order to make a decent living - the real criminals are the middlemen and the buyers.


    /Jakob
    We can moralise at leisure but I would not consider any of my fellow collectors or even those dealers I have relationship with as criminals when I only aquire via legal and open avenues.
    You can consider me, us & them, un-ethical, and I can also choose to think for myself.
    Being a student of archaeology too I appreciate the damage being done but given a few years of looking at the issue from all angles in so far as my own collecting of Chinese antiques I can see this is a practice that has been flourishing for as long as the items were in the ground.
    Each nation has its own challenges, be it pre-Colombian tomb robbing, the fertile crescent, or ancient China. For my part I only collect items from China & the vast quantities of real Chinese items turning up in the rapid construction and modernisation of China are practically unavoidable, rural poverty drives adventuring and an urban OPEN trade in these items means that the scale is massive.
    There is more than just pointing the finger involved to understand how it works. Ironically many common relics would be destroyed in construction projects if they were not valued. The Three Gorges Dam rescue archaeology was impoverished and the looting of sites meant a flood of artefacts came from looted sites while many other sites were lost forever in the path of progress and the rise of water.
    Responsibility for destruction lies collectively with CPC government & industry, grass roots looters, market/sellers and collectors. For my part I can live with it, although I am aware that some of my meagre purchases will finance back to the business end. It IS an unfortunate reality, but reality is something I accept daily.
    While the looters might be seen as less guilty (but this is far from a rule of thumb since well-financed and organised looting does exist too) these are the people who are potentially executed in the PRC. On the other hand the market place is open in the cities for the same items, and collecting is legal in the internal markets. It seems then the official policy is the opposite of Jakob 's sentiment, and the middlemen get away with it as long as sources aren't traced back. ** (i.e you can't make heroin legally, but you can sell heroin on the street corner if you have it)
    Some items get to Hong Kong (SAR) and then reach the West but I am far from convinced Western collectors drive looting, and hence destruction, when the internal Chinese markets are greater in assembled quantity and quality of artefacts than any I have seen elsewhere.
    Collecting of artefacts by Chinese scholars was quite fashionable in the Song dynasty, over 1,000 years ago.
    Yes, collecting artefacts has ethical issues but I don't feel a criminal.
    There is something quite different to holding and examining a piece under a loupe once it is ten thousand miles from home compared to viewing it at a distance on the other side of a plexiglass case. There are many details you will miss when there's a screen of plexiglass separating you from the objects.
    To feel personally responsible for site destruction after all I have seen in the greater scheme of things is about the same as the satisfaction I get in knowing I will contribute to the collapse of the tabbacco industry because I happen to be a non-smoker.

    **
    for an example of the scale of the markets in China see these pictures of just the bronze swords for sale in one open market in Zhengshou; http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...howtopic=13202
    several more pictures on the link above

    ....."These blades still look in very sound condition.

    Robust blades

    A mix of items, as well as a few Shang weapons (including the corroded archiac bronze dagger at the centre)"
    ....

    The person who sent me these pics had his battery run out on the camera and when I commented on the vast quantities of items of all types (not just swords as I had posted) he said;
    "I only sent about half of my pictures because it takes so long to load pictures sometimes. I have quite a few pictures of bronze mirrors, tubes, chariot axle hubs, and assorted stuff of uncertain nature. Furthermore, I stopped taking photos when the camera battery went low.
    While I sent photos of the best jian I saw for sale, I did not even bother to photograph over half of them. Lots of the slightly shorter types with the hollow handle."
    Last edited by Kenneth Blair; 01-02-2007 at 06:14 PM.
    Tripitaka: 'You should live without fear. There's as much chance of good things as bad things.'
    Sandy: 'It's a cheerful philosophy and I've heard it from people before. They're all dead now though.' (1:4) .

    "The strange fact is that the world goes on against all reasonable odd. A hundred years, and even unimaginable evil is just called history."

  7. #7
    I can't believe I that I have just read a fellow student of archaeology actually try to defend his own (and others) contribution to the illegal pillaging of archaeological sites!

    I am speachless.....


    /Jakob
    Last edited by Jakob ElbŠk E. Pedersen; 01-04-2007 at 02:34 AM.
    Jakob ElbŠk Egegaard Pedersen

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Black Hills of SD
    Posts
    1,926
    Rationalize it however you like, Kenneth, you are still helping to subsidize and encourage the looting of archaeological sites.
    "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer."--Gen. George S. Patton

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    980
    I can't even imagine selling something that belonged to our ancestors (or anyone elses for that matter), to me that's blasphemy. If I'd find something in the earth here I'd call the local archeologist to have it all thoroughly researched and documented and then it goes to the museum. This is ancestral heritage, not merchandise.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Durant, OK
    Posts
    19
    Gentleman, its all well and good that you believe so passionately in your ideals, but that does not mean you should all give kenneth hell. The bottom line is he can think and do what he believes he should do, and its obvious he is just as entrenched in his ideas as you are in yours, so accept that he isn't going to change what he is doing and just let it be. This forum is not here for you or anybody to pass judgement on the beliefs/actions of others that you find in conflict with your own, simple as that. Let's try to just go our separate ways in terms of ideals and stop hijacking his thread.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    191
    "I can't believe I that I have just read a fellow student of archaeology actually try to defend his own (and others) contribution to the illegal pillaging of archaeological sites!

    I am speachless"
    Maybe under Stalinism I would just applaude whenever the party told me applaude no matter what I thought, but in pluralist democracy we should be entitled to express opinions even if they may not be the group consensus.
    If you are speachless (sic) then further discussion will be difficult. Rather than defending it as such I am accepting of it, and put it in perspective based on all I have seen and read on the present Chinese situation at least. I have heard horror stories of the treatment of the bones of the dead rudely thrown on spill heaps and the overnight moon crater like appearance of land after gangs of locals descend on a newly discovered site. I have heard of locals watching the work of bulldozers closely. Construction and accidental discovery of sites will occur. Three things may happen when a site is found by whatever means. A museum is called and the finder gets praise. Or the items are perhaps taken to be sold to supplement income. Or the items are just discarded. All of this happens. Some people don't want the fuss of a descending museum (this isn't only in China either as I know from personal conversations here in NZ with construction workers). Common items, like hoards of bronze arrowheads, can be sold for scrap in China as I was told when I enquired about just how little I saw at markets. They are just too common. Ancient ceramics fragments might be used as ashtrays by farmers unless it is onsold and repaired for the market. Calling the academics & museums then is ideal.
    We don't live in an ideal world. The world of the foreseeable future is not likely to be ideal either.
    Not all people who discover sites share our romanticism about the past. On the scale of it the fact remains that some portion of sites will be destroyed in China from year to year and not all of these items are going to find their way to a museum. For my part in the sorry affair I don't feel I can alter the course of looting for profit nor the sacrifices in the name of construction & progress.
    What we think or feel from our armchairs does not change a whole lot.


    "Rationalize it however you like, Kenneth, you are still helping to subsidize and encourage the looting of archaeological sites."
    I believe I said this myself, more than clearly, but with rather more elaboration on complexities & causes.
    I am quite aware of all of this. I have visited sites in the Peoples Republic of China (protection ranging from excellent to none if you move off the tourist trails), visited the urban markets, seen the artefacts.
    My direct control of these matters is not one that will cause me to lose a great deal of sleep personally.
    ......Do you drive a car? Do you realise that in your own way you contribute to global warming? Is that important? Of course it is. Do people still drive cars even when they could easily ride a bike to work, or perhaps use slightly less convenient alternate transport? Yes they do. The reasons & blame for this resides with individual consumers, societal behaviours, the government, national economies, established realities & self interests at all levels. It is a global and multinational crisis.
    The situation needs to be totally turned upside down for any real effective change to occur. A real complete solution will need to be drastic & systematic from top to bottom.
    I am concerned, I am aware of all this. I do still drive a car.

    "I can't even imagine selling something that belonged to our ancestors (or anyone elses for that matter), to me that's blasphemy. If I'd find something in the earth here I'd call the local archeologist to have it all thoroughly researched and documented and then it goes to the museum. This is ancestral heritage, not merchandise."
    I don't expect you would understand selling something to supplement income since you live in a world quite different to the level of wages paid in the Peoples Republic of China and probably have a good standard of living. I am not talking about Europe or anywhere else as I made quite clear.
    It may surprise you but not every ancient item found, even if it reaches a museum, will be thoroughly researched and documented. There are issues of storage, priority, and then the condition or even the mundane nature of certain types of items.
    Yes, ideally it all goes to a museum. But looting (even as a secondary consequence of construction) in China will never end. The antique markets are open and urban people travel to the countryside to pick up antiques from rural folk.
    The Beijing National palace museum & Taipei National Palace Mueum have acquired artefacts from such black markets for their own collections and I have read papers by Chinese academics on artefacts where it seems likely that some portion of the study pieces have been taken from such sources.
    Accepting a situation that is not likely to change is perhaps not admirable, but it seems even museums in China tend to be more pragmatic.



    All that group denouncement is going to do on swordforum is ensure that collectors (not retailers) will move onto the other forums where moral outrage is not a factor, and they will continue to learn about these items in their own manner. I wonder if we will see Ricardo Veltri again?
    I have seen many collectors post their items on this forum and others, often asking questions or simply sharing.
    For my own part I tend to add all my observations from inspection and the current (limited) English literature on the items to the same thread and produce articles instead.
    http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...howtopic=13653
    It is all very well to point out to collectors that the items are almost certainly looted, perhaps this is useful for a newbie, Jeroen pointed this out without turning it into a personal slur. Informing somebody is fine. Browbeating them rather less so.
    In finishing I should perhaps quote Jeroen (whom I already paraphrased above in my 'rationalising') who had admirably returned to authorities some looted antiquities from e-bay but after inspecting them and gaining an insight made these comments. He of course clearly recognised the damage the looting and the lack of provenance had done, as well he should.
    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=60706


    Did you put any of them under a microscope?

    ....."Not under the microscope, but I did look at as many details as possible.
    One nice thing was that I could look inside the sockets for a change, and see the raised lines inside the socket used to secure the axehead (which I use on some of my socketed axes as well).
    I could also compare some of the casting flaws, caused by charcoal inclusions.
    I also noticed that it was clear these axes had been brocken up by heating them until they became very brittle and then breaking them to pieces. Some had even gotten so hot that they nearly started to melt.
    These are the sort of details you usually miss when there's a screen of plexiglass separating you from the objects
    "
    Last edited by Kenneth Blair; 01-04-2007 at 06:48 PM.
    Tripitaka: 'You should live without fear. There's as much chance of good things as bad things.'
    Sandy: 'It's a cheerful philosophy and I've heard it from people before. They're all dead now though.' (1:4) .

    "The strange fact is that the world goes on against all reasonable odd. A hundred years, and even unimaginable evil is just called history."

  12. #12
    I gotta step in here as moderatore for a minute. If discussing collecting ancient artifacts, please keep it to the matter in general, no personal attacks to individuals. The latter violates forum regulations. And keep in mind that it's better to educate then judge!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,512
    Although I'm on the other side of the fence in this regard, I would like to thank Kenneth for the insightful posts.

    One may not agree with these practices, I agree with Kenneth that they are a fact of life, and for now quite difficult to combat in places like China. In any case, it's good to know more about this, regardless of what your personal ideas on antique collection are.
    Last edited by Paul Hansen; 01-05-2007 at 03:46 PM.
    HwŠ­ere ■Šr fuse feorran cwoman
    to ■am Š­elinge. - Dream of the Rood


    "Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see."
    "Yes...it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation."
    - Lord Melchett and Lord Edmund Blackadder

  14. #14
    The difference to keep in mind is the reason of the destruction of a site. If a site is going to be destroyed due to construction work, and there is no archeological research going to be done, by all means dig what can be saved. Such an example occured actually very near Archeon. They'd dug up a lot of ground from a Roman military base, without any archeological research being done. The ground was deposited just behind the Roman reconstructions of Archeon. That ground appeared to be full of top quality artifacts, including pugios complete with scabbards in remarkable condition, bronze vessels, earthenware etc. These artifacts were saved by metal detectorists, and would otherwise now have been part of the fundation of the new houses there.

    However, with the examples I mentioned earlier, it's sites that would have been preserved and left undisturbed for centuries to come if it weren't for looters. This is where most of the Eastern European and Middle Eastern artifacts come from, which form the largest part of the market in ancient artifacts. And aside from that, there is also a large industry in fake artifacts from the Middle East, which are good enough even to fool musea. Either way it's bad. But you can be pretty much guaranteed that if you buy something from those regions, it's going to be either fake or loothed artifacts.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    980
    First of all, I wasn't attacking anyone personally. Just expressing my opinion, which hasn't changed by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    Such an example occured actually very near Archeon. They'd dug up a lot of ground from a Roman military base, without any archeological research being done. The ground was deposited just behind the Roman reconstructions of Archeon. That ground appeared to be full of top quality artifacts, including pugios complete with scabbards in remarkable condition, bronze vessels, earthenware etc.
    It really hurts when I hear such things. Think of all the information that was lost.

    Last year some construction workers in my city found a Medieval grave, they didn't want their project to be halted for archeological excavations so they kept it silent, smashed the bones to pieces, and then dumped it into a rubbish container with the rest of the artifacts. That's how we treat our ancestors and our cultural heritage.
    Even when there's no money for a full excavation such a place should be either left undisturbed for future excavation, or there should be a quick dig in which at least some photographs and measurements can be taken before anything is sold to private collectors or buried under concrete. The only things you need for that are a shovel, a camera and a ruler. At least the finding place can still be recorded that way. It won't have to take long either so construction will hardly be delayed.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •